Timer on transition

[hond]

a last point...my stunner capped 124 spot...but i have to take bloody, vigilance, SF spot, and esf spot for a +17 total...Some faction have a nice +20 token ...4 feats its a lot of difference betweens 2 toons...
also need CC and TS spell...
+20 spot no dispel is a joke...a bad joke for those who don't have it....

[Bargeld]

People who want to play a variety of interesting builds are frustrated because so many of them are rendered worthless for PvP by high DC sneak/stunners.

x2

...

Token stacking with a TS helm that swaps out to a +7 or better spot helm is a killer. +47 for as many TS helms as you can carry x11.

Back when I started NS4, shifters were a mess and people were crashing the server left and right (mostly accidental). It took quite a while to get everything worked out with the new system. But before that, there were a 'band-aid' changes that were implemented in an effort to even things out. They were not ideal solutions, but they helped at the time. Perhaps a similar approach could be applied here? Nerf the stacking! It doesn't take away from other, more problematic areas, but at least they get wimpier by just a little.

[cRaZy8or5e]

TS stacking with helmets? People are not being dominated by TS stacking from helmets. Well they shouldn't be ...

I’ve been on both sides of the CoT fight. With experienced players it’s almost formulaic anymore, action and reaction, and I've seen every CoT on this server dominated (stunners included) by well played sorc’s who know how to attack a CoT’s weaknesses. If you try and beat a CoT by attacking them where they're strongest, then you deserve to be two rounded.

EDIT2: Stunning fist is OP. CoT stunners are completely "over the top" OPed, more than any other stunner build. I'll agree with that part of the argument.

[weasel423]

Stunning fist is OP. CoT stunners are completely "over the top" OPed, more than any other stunner build. I'll agree with that part of the argument.

QFT

[hond]

How many efforts have you put in order to beat most (>90%) of other non-cot toons with a stunner?

man ...first of all it take me lot of effort reaching 40 ...my first toon on 40...on second place i wanted this toon as anti SD, Cser or monks runner...so as i mentioned before, making a toon who have to reach high Spot with autobuff is not so easy compared than in other places.... with the stats i run, you will understand that is not so easy to kill the rest of non CoTs... with 77 hide/ms, no hyps, 70 AC epic dodge, 48 AB, and 57 DC stun, your not really a killing machine...the goal is the stun...but with that AB, trust me...is not so easy ... I can't push the win Hotcase wrath...you have to corner sneak, protect you the most posible with scroll, you have to breach, dispell, corner hide/stun listeners, and try taking flat footed the spoters...you have to avoid any bigby...any implode/black blade...also wail....I'm not playing a hypser or a OP cot stunner, who just have to rush right down and spam stun DC 62,at 65 AB and 80 damages averages....My toon is crap...and it cost a lot killing players with a crap toon....Lots of efforts, money and xps (scrolls and rods)....

and i'm far away of the 90 % you said...

[cRaZy8or5e]

How many efforts have you put in order to beat most (>90%) of other non-cot toons with a stunner?

man ...first of all it take me lot of effort reaching 40 ...my first toon on 40...on second place i wanted this toon as anti SD, Cser or monks runner...so as i mentioned before, making a toon who have to reach high Spot with autobuff is not so easy compared than in other places.... with the stats i run, you will understand that is not so easy to kill the rest of non CoTs... with 77 hide/ms, no hyps, 70 AC epic dodge, 48 AB, and 57 DC stun, your not really a killing machine...

So what you're saying is you can't create a build that can reliably fight every other build on the server? Sounds like things are in balance then.

This was brought up earlier and I meant to reply but never got around to it. The reason why CoT's aren't good only is purely because NC has extremely limited build options already. Considering that we only have one caster (cleric) class, limiting how we can build with that one caster class even further would make an already difficult faction to play even more difficult.

At least that's my speculation. It's never been spelled out. The fact that NC does get neutral CoT's (LN only) makes it only so that we can build plane touched clerics. With the boost to planar turning, those builds have started to lose their appeal lol. But if you see an elf CoT, unless he's a cleric/CoT, he's most likely a pally/CoT and LG. We only have three alignments LG, NG, and LN.

[hond]

We only have three alignments LG, NG, and LN.

that the problem...cause if you check alignement of all NC toon the majority will LN...while in SL 100% are evil...you can skip the smite with LN toon ...if your not paly ...why bothering with good alignement...and curiosity of the case is , human subrace with favorite class Monk need to be neutral...and loyal for Monk...if your good only, goodby gitzerai, goodby water genasi or any human subrace if monk...as SL now...
you have no Sorcs ,no wizards, no rogue... but have harper scout, ranger , druid... as SL now (3 class with no access)
In all of case , i don't see any points your worst than SL...
The simple fact of beeing evil , reduce drasticaly of race, subrace choice when making a toon....If drows are not evil only, why SL have to be evil?? and in case we have to because yes....why NC can't be good only ???
you complain about an eventual "nerf" who will nerf access to subrace in NC....we have this nerf in SL....
and i don't mentioned the pure paly turner flooring all around ....

[Daral0085]

NC does not have druid. Also, taking bard forces you to go good in NC.

[mining]

77 hide/ms, no hips

There's your problem. I have non-focused spotters that can beat that unbuffed, and you can't cheese that with HiPS.

Re: Class selection, no comment but for reference, the list:

Races: All

Alignments: Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, or Neutral Good

Classes: Cleric(any except Evil), Paladin, Monk, Fighter, Bard, Ranger

Races: Drow and Mercenaries of any race

Alignments: Evil

Classes: Cleric (All Domains except Good, Plant, Air, Fire, and Sun), All other classes except for Druid, Ranger or Paladin and HS

Notable holes from each side:
NC: Mages, rogues, Barbarians.

SL: Githz monk. Ranger/HS (is there another time you'd meaningfully use it? Maybe sorc/HS, but then its sorc vs HS). No really great melee class that makes everything better. You have X/Y/WM, bard mixes, barb/fighter and cleric mixes, but no PM, RDD, CoT, Shifter type substitution to OP.

when i speak about 48 DC it's a SL cleric...think cleric CoT can take +3 dc compared with others one...

This is false. The only >48 caster is in AO, and its not a cleric.

Re: Stunners: Where's the rogue/monk/SD at? That's a 120ish hide, DC 55ish stun build that shreds things.
Fighter/monk/CoT would also only have a 3-4 minute wrath at most, in addition to no divine feats (which btw I know most (>50%) stunner CoTs (even w/ cleric) don't take).

I find the best way to get an understanding of other factions most OP classes is to plan them out yourself, figure out how to make it, and then figure out what you're sacrificing (admittedly not much for most CoTs) to get to those stats.

but i have to take bloody, vigilance, SF spot, and esf spot for a +17 total...Some faction have a nice +20 token ...4 feats its a lot of difference betweens 2 toons...

Also, the token does stack to the +50 cap - it doesn't make up for those 4 feats, it makes up for not having an extra +20, e.g. ESF divination CC and TS.

[mining]

To play devil's advocate with myself:

What beats a stunning CoT? It needs to have superior fort/immunity to stun or more AC than the CoT has AB.
It probably can't rely on being a HiPSer unless it has awesome hide and good AC and/or fort.

My draft CoT stunner has ~62 AB, DC 58 stun, 100 spot, but only 67 AC and ~572 HP self buffed. <== Those numbers will go up by 3/2/22/3/80 points with dex/wis/wis&TS/dex/con buffs respectively.

Countering it with a HiPSer would be possible, though challenging - would not recommend.
However, I think I could probably beat it with a dexxer with Edodge and high AC (85+ in IE) - they could RNG a stun through, but it would be pretty unlucky. In contrast, said dexxer would get stomped by a HiPSing stunner.
In the opposite vein, a non-AC based PM will easily beat the HiPSing stunner, but lose to this because of unresistable damages, most likely.

[dethonlegs]

What beats a stunning CoT?

When Neil was running his, it was totally owning most things out of MA, except for a very few specific builds. I was normally solo defending againt it so these comments are with that in mind. I tried many different builds out:

* Mages get some damage in but cant stay out of mele range forever - one stun and your dead
* 60+ fort made it stun proof so forget that
* Pure fighter STR build would get a rumble but would need to be extremely lucky on rolls to finish it before it would up and stun you. Dont recall that ever being successful.
* DEX summoner PM didnt work. With divine damage summon went down super quick and then it was a long drawn out affair where i'd never win.
* CON PM wiz could reliably kill it *IF* he decided to mele you. He soon learned simply ignoring you was the solution here.
* The only build I had that was total safe against it was a PM cleric / bard dexer. Stun proof, high AC and heals up the wazoo. Zero killing power however.

I remember being rather frustrated at the time.

[hond]

hond wrote:
77 hide/ms, no hips

There's your problem. I have non-focused spotters that can beat that unbuffed, and you can't cheese that with HiPS.

Re: Class selection, no comment but for reference, the list:

43 base + 20 TS helm + 20 token.....+ wis mod+ 10 spot helm...etc...
perhaps the problem there, is some players who don't want to loose 1 AB or 1 Dc to invest points in inteligence and sacrify 43 skills points in spot or listen....even have to bother to take any more feats...

[cRaZy8or5e]

We only have three alignments LG, NG, and LN.

that the problem...cause if you check alignement of all NC toon the majority will LN...

This is blatantly wrong. At least half of our builds have pally in them, and all of our bards are NG.

while in SL 100% are evil...you can skip the smite with LN toon ...if your not paly ...why bothering with good alignement...and curiosity of the case is , human subrace with favorite class Monk need to be neutral...and loyal for Monk...if your good only, goodby gitzerai, goodby water genasi or any human subrace if monk...as SL now...
you have no Sorcs ,no wizards, no rogue... but have harper scout, ranger , druid... as SL now (3 class with no access)
In all of case , i don't see any points your worst than SL...

I would say that you have a lot more build options in SL. Your race combos suffer that's certain so some of those build combos aren't as powerful as what can be built in other factions, but in the end, you're talking about access to plane touched races, which are inherently vulnerable. Are we worse off than SL? Meh I don't think so, I think it's fairly close to even. It's definitive that both factions HAVE to use teamwork to be successful. I've quit raiding with SL unless some of your older players are around because you new players haven't the slightest clue how to work as a team, and I don't have the patience to try and teach you.

The simple fact of beeing evil , reduce drasticaly of race, subrace choice when making a toon....If drows are not evil only, why SL have to be evil?? and in case we have to because yes....why NC can't be good only ???
you complain about an eventual "nerf" who will nerf access to subrace in NC....we have this nerf in SL....
and i don't mentioned the pure paly turner flooring all around ....

The argument for making Drow available for only SL is an intriguing one. If there ever is a wipe again, this make sense. Why can't NC be good only? Well give us sorcs and rogues like SL has and we'll be good only

* Mages get some damage in but cant stay out of mele range forever - one stun and your dead

You actually can stay out of melee range forever. But you're correct, the first time you don't you're dead. A con based wiz/PM might not have enough spells to do the trick, I don't know what spells you were trying to kill it with. I assume acid arrows and ice storms and just giving up on a mords and conventional spells. A con based sorc/PM would have enough. Pure sorc with an evil summon is still your best bet, provided you aren't chasing it through transitions where it can get you in range.

Something else not included in your story, neil would run multiple toons with that CoT stunner, usually that obnoxious pure cleric and probably a bard of some kind. So killing it would be difficult as he'd be healing it out of trouble.

[mining]

hond wrote:
77 hide/ms, no hips

There's your problem. I have non-focused spotters that can beat that unbuffed, and you can't cheese that with HiPS.

43 base + 20 TS helm + 20 token.....+ wis mod+ 10 spot helm...etc...
perhaps the problem there, is some players who don't want to loose 1 AB or 1 Dc to invest points in inteligence and sacrify 43 skills points in spot or listen....even have to bother to take any more feats...

I mean, 77 hide/ms is within the region that a lot of builds can get to with just gear.

43 ranks, 10 ESF, 5 wis mod, 7 helm is 75 spot. I'd see that build every time with a pretty generic melee cleric/rogue/fighter with spot feats but no real focus in spot - before I'd buffed.

[frogofpeace]

Yeah, 77 hide is worthless, bud, if your saying that is what your toon has. If you want a hider, better be prepared to invest in feats. NC job is irrelevant here. Check the IO boards, there's good sneak builds there.