changes to Shadow dancers

[Sneakypie]

As for specific race/class combos? Thats ridiculous!

What I said was specific race/class combo to get a hide score that would even require a roll. What's Rex's spot at all buffed up? Is there a single sneak on the server who you don't see without a roll? If there is it's a ghostwise / heavy SD.

I tend to heat up to whatever topic I'm discussing, so I don't want to give the impression that it's some awful thing to nerf hips. The server will work just fine with no SD's at all. I just feel like there's a really disproportionate anti SD vibe. SD has it's share of nerfs and flaws, and this will just be one more.

[Korr]

You mean my CoT with multiple (but not all) feats for spot, that gets followed by a spot buffing cleric? I think its 115, would be over 120 if I took all feats and made Rex and elf . . . Aasimar seemed interesting tho.


EDIT: Though a side note, Rex is a little out of the ordinary. Most CoTs have some wisdom because they are monks, Rex has a good wisdom score because hes also a stunner (minimum 19 Wisdom).

[disastro]

i ran the numbers a while back, but basically 115 spot will have a hard time vs 120 hide (which at least one toon out there has already achieved).

basically, if spot = hide, then the hider will be invisible 50% of the time. which as most combats go is a significant combat advantage by itself (the 50% spot case leaves the hider with the advantage.. crip strike sneak etc. it remains an advantage even at even strength because the consequences for the spotter are worse than for the attacker, who can still rely on ac even if seen). for each point of difference in spot vs hide the advantage shifts pretty quickly.

5 points basically means the hider is usually not seen round to round, and is free to do whatever it is he's gonna do. same goes the other way, 5 points to the spotter and then the hider is usually NOT hidden round to round.

a ten point difference is effectively insurmountable given how long most combat lasts.

[Sneakypie]

My 40 Svir with 5 SD levels has max dex, 5 feats invested in hide, moleman king armor, hide rings, crafted boots, hide cloak, 2 hide rings, UMD for cats etc, and hits 100 hide.

If a toon has 120 then they are ghostwise with lots of SD levels (or possibly cleric tirckery levels).

Now I haven't tested yet which scrolls are self buffable for this, but I know when Anomander buffed me my same svirneb with 1 feat in spot had 118. He can't even hide from himself.

An actual dedicated spotter has considerably more. I've been in fights with archers who pretty much never stopped firing at me.

[Bargeld]

Disastro, you're assumptions are correct if you put the spotter right next to the sneaky and they dont move. There are a ton of environment variables and I honestly believe they work to the favor of the sneaky...

Laufer doesn't even break 100 hide or ms on the charsheet, yet lots of spotters seem to have a hard time with him. I have to attribute it to racials and size and environment variables, because, well... he's really not that sneaky.

One of my favorites is to click your toon while being chased, so it stops in mid stride, and then hips while standing still. There are very few toons that don't break queue unless they are already right on top of him. Less than 100 hide ms!

[LinuxPup]

Don't forget that being small gives you an extra +4 hide, plus there's a bonus at night, and various other bonuses.

[VagaStorm]

My 40 Svir with 5 SD levels has max dex, 5 feats invested in hide, moleman king armor, hide rings, crafted boots, hide cloak, 2 hide rings, UMD for cats etc, and hits 100 hide.

If a toon has 120 then they are ghostwise with lots of SD levels (or possibly cleric tirckery levels).

Now I haven't tested yet which scrolls are self buffable for this, but I know when Anomander buffed me my same svirneb with 1 feat in spot had 118. He can't even hide from himself.

An actual dedicated spotter has considerably more. I've been in fights with archers who pretty much never stopped firing at me.

Worth to point out here that to get to 118 with only one feat in spot(I asume esf since it gives the most), you need 40 wis 43(max base)+10(esf)+50(max buff to spot) = 103, 118-10 = 15 == 40 wis, which is way more than most non zen based toon will ever have

[Sneakypie]

Worth to point out here that to get to 118 with only one feat in spot(I asume esf since it gives the most), you need 40 wis 43(max base)+10(esf)+50(max buff to spot) = 103, 118-10 = 15 == 40 wis, which is way more than most non zen based toon will ever have

I'm not sure how the numbers played out, I just looked at my character sheet and read what it said. I do have esf and a high wis, but certainly not 40. Might have more to do with the various foci that the buffer had. I dunno what's supposed to work with the 50point thing, but either equip or race or spells or something pushed me much higher than what you're saying.

[VagaStorm]

Worth to point out here that to get to 118 with only one feat in spot(I asume esf since it gives the most), you need 40 wis 43(max base)+10(esf)+50(max buff to spot) = 103, 118-10 = 15 == 40 wis, which is way more than most non zen based toon will ever have

I'm not sure how the numbers played out, I just looked at my character sheet and read what it said. I do have esf and a high wis, but certainly not 40. Might have more to do with the various foci that the buffer had. I dunno what's supposed to work with the 50point thing, but either equip or race or spells or something pushed me much higher than what you're saying.

50 points is the cap for how much a skill can e bosted, so items+cervoiance+trueseeing+bardsong should not be able to go above +50, not sure is your character sheet knows this tho, more often than not it dos not :p

[Chernobyl_Glow]

Bargeld, Thanks for sharing the details on Laufer. Its a great contribution to the conversation. I have a character which is a "pretty good" spotter Glow - HNs -. I can self buff to 99 Spot. (52 ranks w/ESF, wis bonus 7, 30 from spells 10 from gear) Its aasimar so no keen senses but, I have my super/awesome/terrific aura!!

It seems that even with Aura up, I can't spot Laufer at all. If I see him I attack but the queue is broken before I swing. I press detect mode and see him walking at a distance. I undetect to try and catch up. I click attack and the queue is immediately broken and I can't see him again. I press detect and see him walking at a distance. I think this is because given a 50/50 chance of hide means that he only has to try to hide twice to succeed. For him to try and Hide twice or three or four times isn't an exploit currently. Its simply the way it works. He can simply try until he succeeds.

Additionally, Laufer still isn't an easy kill even if I could spot him. I think I have a pretty versatile build and shoud be pretty nasty for a Sneaker. Say I DO manage to get one attack off Laufer has Epic Dodge - Attack Evaded. Or say he just runs, well I can't catch him he has monk levels for speed. Even with my 20% bump from 6 monk levels and Haste on my character he just runs around and laughs. Oh!! I'll hit him with IGMS but his SR blocks it. Laufer won't be worthless by a change. Solid build.

He should still be able to beat a lot of build 1v1. However, he should NOT be able to run around a relic room with 8 defenders who can't touch him. I've only seen him taken down by HB, Barb Roar and Fighter KD. And even in those scenarios, The Caster/Barb/Fighter weren't able to make the kill. It takes one or more other players around to kill him in that next round. Cause if they can't, he gets up and hides and rests/heals in seclusion and the 20 min chase ensues. 7,8,9 vs 1 shouldn't be possible.

Sneaky, FYI. The rock paper scissors example: the HIPser doesn't need a melee character to counter his Spotter Foe - He needs a Dispeller. What spotter build isn't dispellable? The only real way to build an untouchable spotter is a Ranger/Monk with Keen Sense who gets buffed by a Pure Caster with Div focus. In other words it requires two characters uniquely focused builds (worthless against most others) in order to counter a good sneaker accompanied by any pure caster as support.

As far as I care, I'd be fine with them adding more spot/listen AND more hide/ms gear after the change.

- Glow -

[disastro]

... If I see him I attack but the queue is broken before I swing. I press detect mode and see him walking at a distance. I undetect to try and catch up. I click attack and the queue is immediately broken and I can't see him again. I press detect and see him walking at a distance.

this is exactly why melee without keen senses is a waste of time vs a sneaker. do not expect to win in melee without keen senses, period (against any decent player anyways). it's just how the game mechanics work.

[Korr]

Rexs stunning fist stops alot of hipsers in their tracks, then its easy enough to get that spot in from detect mode and drop them

[Tsavong]

i normly use a bow when im fighting a sneeker running after you lot keen sences or no is just a pain in the arce.

much more fun to fill you with arrows wall your walking around slowly trying to hide :p

[Chernobyl_Glow]

... If I see him I attack but the queue is broken before I swing. I press detect mode and see him walking at a distance. I undetect to try and catch up. I click attack and the queue is immediately broken and I can't see him again. I press detect and see him walking at a distance.

this is exactly why melee without keen senses is a waste of time vs a sneaker. do not expect to win in melee without keen senses, period (against any decent player anyways). it's just how the game mechanics work.

I agree 100%. Even with equal skill and the aasimar aura. The game mechanics negate my ability to play. This is what needs fixing. Don't nerf their ability to hide. Not gear, builds, skills, caps, etc are even close to being an issue. It's the game mechanics. I'm afraid that a Hide of 80-90 would probably be sufficient vs my 99 Spot w/o Keen given the current game engine.

Why should it be required that my spotter have 10-20 more Spot than the Hider? How come 100 Hide/MS is very effective and yet 99 Spot is almost worthless? It should require a difference of 20 in his favor to be as effective as he is. To do that should require sacrifices to his build which would open up some additional weaknesses. Just like what has to happen for a Spotter to get to 120. Laufer with just 100 H/MS owns me and such is a case in point.

- Glow -

[Alkapwn]

Glow this just aint true. Avarice can spot almost every hider ive come across almost infallably. Only 1 has given me trouble and that was only because of the area of battle. We have plenty of spotters that do amazingly well vs sd's and non-sd's . You guys just have to think your builds through more is my guess. IMO sd's are kinda weak. The trade offs are if you want more dmg your saves are gonna suffer huge and leave gaping weaknesses. If you want to be unseeable and decent saves you're dmg/ab is gonna be the pits.

SD's are easily destroyed there's alot of things you just cant hide from. Like JP's stink!!! Where has that guy been anyway?