Dragon Fear question

[Eldaquen]

Funny that I do not see those in favor of RDD request the same calculation with same ability and feat restrictions that any shifter/druid must adhere to in order to obtain the DC of 50.

Instead of creating a whole new calculation based on CHA, why not base RDD fear DC on what druid/shifter must do, the stated request here is to balance the builds, basically from what I read, so far, to make them the same. Druid/shifter dragons must have high wisdom to achieve which creates need to sacrafice feats for wisdom restricting available feat choices making blinding speed, stunning fist, imp kd, imp expertise not available to a shifter/dragon build if building for fear with 50 DC. Why not just change RDD fear aura calculation to same as druid/shifter with restrictions on feats so end result is that RDD dragons and Shifter dragons, built for fear aura DC, are truly balanced.

Fear aura based shifter dragons must sacrafice for high wisdom and sacraficing feats in order to achieve such a high DC, resulting in feat selection limitations; making also having blinding speed, stunning fist, epic dr, and all the other feat combinations currently available to RDD's impossible for a shifter dragon; in order to achieve the desired fear aura of 50 DC, since there are not enough feat slots to do everything.

To "balance" change RDD dragons so to have high DC fear aura the builder would need to focus on wisdom and sacrafice feat combinations in favor so both builds are similar; ie no blinding speed, no monk class or some feat combination so the end result is the same abilities as a shifter dragon with high fear aura would have, in order to access same fear aura of 50 DC. Then you would have the balance which was claimed seeking in this thread.

Why is was this not the request from AO player base?

For that matter so the builds are balanced, why was it not put forth to either allow druid/monk/shifter so shifter dragons may have Imp KD and stunning fist for free...or to remove monk from being an allowed class combination in RDD dragons so the builds are truly balanced.

I suspect its because the goal is not to have balance between the dragon builds.

[Rainswept]

Funny that I do not see those in favor of RDD request the same calculation with same ability and feat restrictions that any shifter/druid must adhere to in order to obtain the DC of 50.

Instead of creating a whole new calculation based on CHA, why not base RDD fear DC on what druid/shifter must do, the stated request here is to balance the builds, basically from what I read, so far, to make them the same. Druid/shifter dragons must have high wisdom to achieve which restricts available feats reducing options so blinding speed, stunning fist, imp kd, imp expertise are not avaible to a dragon build to acheive 50 DC. Why is not the request to change RDD fear aura calculation to same as druid/shifter with restrictions to feats available so RDD dragons and Shifter dragons built for fear aura DC are truly balanced.

Fear aura based shifter dragons must focus on wisdom and focusing feats in that ability resulting in feat selection limitations; causing the ability to obtain blinding speed, stunning fist, epic dr, and all the other feat combinations currently available to RDD's impossible for a shifter dragon; in order to achieve the desired fear aura of 50 DC, since there are not enough feat slots to do everything.

If change RDD dragons built for fear aura so builder would need to choose to sacrafice feat combinations in favor of high wisdom so both builds are the similar; ie no blinding speed, no monk class or some feat combination so end result is the same abilities as a shifter dragon with high fear aura, in order to access same fear aura 50 DC, then you would have the balance claimed seeking in this thread.

Why is was this not the request from AO player base?

For that matter so the builds are balanced, why was it not put forth to either allow druid/monk/shifter so shifter dragons may have Imp KD and stunning fist for free...or to remove monk from being an allowed class combination in RDD dragons so the builds are truly balanced.

I suspect its because the goal is not to have balance between the dragon builds.

If you're going to throw out stuff like this as an excuse for insults, maybe you could at least read the thread first...

basically my idea was make it something that has to be earned through building, not just something that is given, since this seems to be the gripe most peeps have with it.

[Amoenotep]

the only thing monk gains you in any shifted build is class based skills, improved movement rate based on lvl, and free auto feats....

[Eldaquen]

If you're going to throw out stuff like this as an excuse for insults, maybe you could at least read the thread first...

Where is the insult, I asked a question.

One that took several attempts at editing to fix how question and idea was said. Not my best draft attempt.

Form what I have read here, appears those in favor of RDD's with high fear aura request the change without similar restrictions in build options. Merely putting forth if going to ask for balance so builds are the same then the feat combination and class combinations available to both builds need to be more in line with each other.

[Eldaquen]

the only thing monk gains you in any shifted build is class based skills, improved movement rate based on lvl, and free auto feats....

Yes, but not having to take 3 feats to obtain stunning fist is a big advantage, or not having to take 2 feats for imp kd. Not really asking for a change, just attempted to get included in this thread that focusing on 1 aspect of shifter dragon in comparing to RDD dragon is not balancing builds.

I would prefer them stay different. Also not sure if was mentioned, but pure druid dragons have no fear aura at all, left coveting RDD dragon fear aura of 35 DC, which is fine, not asking for fear aura on druid/dragons.

[LinuxPup]

Not positive, but I think there's no point in imp. KD for dragons since they're probably the biggest size category... would have to check the .2da

[Tru3Fals3]

Not positive, but I think there's no point in imp. KD for dragons since they're probably the biggest size category... would have to check the .2da

as far as we can see from testing you are correct, imp kd is unecessary on a dragon since you cant upsize from huge (or whatever size dragon is i cant remember but it was the highest)

[Korr]

And you get normal KD for free (or used to, havent checked that) anyway ';)

[Rufio]

the only thing monk gains you in any shifted build is class based skills, improved movement rate based on lvl, and free auto feats....

Oh, and the monk unarmed strike attack progression in dragon form. that isn't a big deal or anything.

[Amoenotep]

the only thing monk gains you in any shifted build is class based skills, improved movement rate based on lvl, and free auto feats....

Oh, and the monk unarmed strike attack progression in dragon form. that isn't a big deal or anything.

when your only getting a few lvls of monk in (9 at the most) that uber unarmed ab progression doesn't even factor in. your getting the attacks/round but your ab is still sucky compared to other things.


druid/shifter is pure wis based fear

if rdd had pure fear based on rdd it'd be bard,sorc/rdd only cha based fear..would be the only balance to it.

[mining monk]

If you combine 3 classes with high wills appropriately pre-epic lvls, you can get a base will of 26+stats+feat bonuses

Yeah, I figured that one out after looking over the saves tables(How could I not know this....), it's still a bit from 35...

I meant for the

will
epic levels 10
rings 2
Helm 4
armor 1
Pre-epic low save 6
totals 35

Almost every toon can use the above…

Base save that ANY toon can get. Sorry for being unclear.

Not positive, but I think there's no point in imp. KD for dragons since they're probably the biggest size category... would have to check the .2da

Unless I'm mistaken, its a bonus to KDing another dragon.

when your only getting a few lvls of monk in (9 at the most) that uber unarmed ab progression doesn't even factor in. your getting the attacks/round but your ab is still sucky compared to other things.

If your concerned about BAB, you get 10 RDD (7) + 6 (8 monk) +1 (2 sorc) = 14 BAB, just 1 less than that a druid/shifter can obtain. You also get more AC pre level 37 and unshifted, from RDD, +1 monk, +Wis (only unshifted) and 20 tumble at level 20, rather than at 37 for shifter. You lose out on very minor AB. You could also take 9 barbarian instead. Well done, you just got 16 BAB, +2 AB, and -1-2 APR.

If X is the BAB of fighterclassXYZ, and (X-2) is the BAB of monk:
X-2/X-5/X-8/X-11/X-14 or X-4/X-4/X-7/X-10/X-13/X-16. Correct me if I'm wrong.
FIGHTERCLASSXYZ: X/X-5/X-10/X-15. Overall I believe you have a higher chance of hitting after the 1st attack. Your 5th attack is better than their 4th by 1 AB. Your 2nd is equal to their 2nd. etc. I hardly think thats nothing.

druid/shifter is pure wis based fear

if rdd had pure fear based on rdd it'd be bard,sorc/rdd only cha based fear..would be the only balance to it.

+1. Make it CHA based though?

Or even based on Lore/4 (Max of 10) + RDD levels (30, obvious) +1/2 Sorceror levels preepic (5 maximum) +1 for SF lore, +1 for ESF lore, +1 per 2 great CHA feats = Max of 52, but at a BAB of 12. Or you could use bard, but max out at 48 and a BAB of 14.
Feat intensive, but it would be somewhat easier to get, as your base CHA could be 8.

Thats all from a math heavy noob.

[Amoenotep]

skill pts vs saves get hairy and unbalanced really really fast.

base for dragonshape is druid/shifter...the class attribute is wis

base for rdd is sorc/bard...class attribute is cha

looks like a match

[mining monk]

skill pts vs saves get hairy and unbalanced really really fast.

base for dragonshape is druid/shifter...the class attribute is wis

base for rdd is sorc/bard...class attribute is cha

looks like a match

Wisdom > than CHA.

[Rufio]

the only thing monk gains you in any shifted build is class based skills, improved movement rate based on lvl, and free auto feats....

Oh, and the monk unarmed strike attack progression in dragon form. that isn't a big deal or anything.

when your only getting a few lvls of monk in (9 at the most) that uber unarmed ab progression doesn't even factor in. your getting the attacks/round but your ab is still sucky compared to other things.

maybe this was already said, but yeah, you can get a higher ab with levels other than monk, but you are going to hit things more with more attacks, and since the attacks are reduced by 3 ab each round rather than 5, all your successsive attacks are progressively more likely to hit than those of someone with the standard progression. I would sacrifice a few points of ab any day for the monk attack progression.

[mining monk]

[quote="Rufio]

the only thing monk gains you in any shifted build is class based skills, improved movement rate based on lvl, and free auto feats....

Oh, and the monk unarmed strike attack progression in dragon form. that isn't a big deal or anything.[/quote]


when your only getting a few lvls of monk in (9 at the most) that uber unarmed ab progression doesn't even factor in. your getting the attacks/round but your ab is still sucky compared to other things.[/quote]

maybe this was already said, but yeah, you can get a higher ab with levels other than monk, but you are going to hit things more with more attacks, and since the attacks are reduced by 3 ab each round rather than 5, all your successsive attacks are progressively more likely to hit than those of someone with the standard progression. I would sacrifice a few points of ab any day for the monk attack progression.[/quote]

If X is the BAB of fighterclassXYZ, and (X-2) is the BAB of monk:
X-2/X-5/X-8/X-11/X-14 or X-4/X-4/X-7/X-10/X-13/X-16. Correct me if I'm wrong.
FIGHTERCLASSXYZ: X/X-5/X-10/X-15. Overall I believe you have a higher chance of hitting after the 1st attack. Your 5th attack is better than their 4th by 1 AB. Your 2nd is equal to their 2nd. etc. I hardly think thats nothing

I think you were right, though it was a whole !3! posts above yours.