Crumble is another Druid spell that needs help. So here is my idea,
The Druid turns the target's legs to stone, at the same time they try to destroy them with sonic damage, causing the target to crumble to the ground.
Crumble
Caster Level: Druid 6
Innate Level: 6
School: Transmutation
Components: V,S
Range: Long
Save: Will and Fortitude
Spell Resistance: Yes
Area of Effect: Single
Duration: 3 Seconds or 1 Round
Additional Counterspells: None
Description: This spell causes the target's legs to be turned to stone for 3 seconds, a fortitude save for 1/2 is then made versus the sonic damage of 1d6 per caster level, to a maximum of 15d6.
If target fails the fortitude save they are knockdown for 1 round. *This spell does not harm creatures that do not have legs.
*I imagine ideally using the animation of stonehold on target, with a soundburst animation on top.
Where did I say anything about 3 rounds? Its 3 seconds, that's half a round. If you failed only the first save you would still be able to attack and cast spells for that 3 seconds. If you fail them both
Then you would be knockdown for 1 round total. Not 3 secs. +1 round
Caster druid
Re: Caster druid
Last edited by Acesen414 on Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Caster druid
Keep the para, lose the damage?Bargeld wrote:If druids get a lvl 6 spell that disables all action for even 3 rounds, then I'd be reallly mad about assassins losing para in their death attack. That's just wrong, even if it has crap DC and 2x save types.
As far as crumble goes... stonehold is basically what youre talking about anyway.
Amoenotep wrote:korr is the greatest
Re: Caster druid
I have never rolled a drood on NS4 as of yet, and (I've been on & off since ~2003) and the main reason is the requirement for pvp on NS4 is movement speed or you do not have a viable toon, period. Although for the sake of doing damage to players that are moving faster than you, casters and ranged have LESS of an issue than melee who need to close on you to actually do damage to you, not more.
Droods also have WAY too many disadvantages spell-wise, some spells are aoe or short-range. Clerics get various heals that can be cast instead of the slotted spells, droods get summons that are mostly weak and useless (NWN design), and when it boils down to it, they have only a handful of unique spells which are pretty weak, if they even do any damage at all. NS4 has done some nice dev work to make those few spells a bit more usable, but really, they don't compare to mage or even cleric spells.
Also, a bunch of spells that could be great like the various flame and electicity spells suffer from the 0 damage problem due to nearly everyone having evasion, or high reflex saves that cut the damage in half.
In addition to giving blood frenzy a speed-bonus, perhaps some other spells could be beefed-up:
Blood Frenzy
Keep same +Hasted speed increase. -like was said earlier, make it drop if you shapeshift into dragon form (you could allow it to work for other forms since they are mostly melee so they suffer the same need for haste as any other toon).
Creeping Doom
Like was said before, this spell can be easily avoided and mostly ignored by most people but the changes seem decent. Perhaps it should do elemental damage as well as the piercing?
Crumble
Perhaps widen the scope to unbreathing creatures: constructs, elementals, PMs, undeads, etc.. for the normal damage.
The destructive force should do 'something' to living things, it can unravel the structure of a construct so it should cause some pain to the living also, maybe half damage?
Drown
DC needs a bigger bump for this to be useful, high fort toons with spellcraft good luck ever landing a hit with this as it is. Could maybe do half damage for a successful save?
Elemental Swarm
From what I've read the summons this spawns aren't modified by the normal bonuses, it's more of a way to soak hits/focus, or split IGMS the summons aren't much of a threat to epic level anything.
Flame Lash
One of the many Reflex 1/2 spells that most pvp toons are immune to due to evasion, such a cool looking spell maybe worthwhile if the save was removed all together.
Healing Sting
Due to the fort save 1/2, this spell needs to be doubled in damage/healing power to bring it on-par with mages. Maybe take it a step further and add a speed reduction to the target (to make it just like Mind-flay that wow shadow priests have.. heh).
Inferno
Looks promising, I know on occasion while leveling, I've had this hit me from a mob and it causes some issues, possibly to make it more interesting; in addition to the damage, have it lower movement speed, or lower AB/AC? The target's attention will be partially focused on the fact that he's burning so...
Infestation of Maggots
Remove SR, Remove save? Add some elemental damage per round (similar to Melf's acid arrow but with the disease on top)
Quillfire
I know it's a lvl3 spell, but perhaps a bit more damage output would make it more useful. A lvl40 drood maximizing this would be 46 damage...not exactly OP. I do like the ns4 changes but damage is really lacking.
Stonehold
I know this one has changed to something of a 1-shot spell, my suggestion would be to make this more similar to Flesh to Stone, I love the modifications to that spell! OR you could have it auto-strip FoM and apply the hold/paralysis if the target is not otherwise immune, if they are immune to paralysis, then they would still suffer (some of?) the other effects like movement speed, dodge ac, etc..
Spike Growth
WOW! A damage shield for droods - The only issue is the duration is SO short it's pretty useless, look at Death armor, does MAGIC damage, is extendable and lasts pretty much forever and ever and it's a level 2 spell. To make this spell worth casting (and spell-focusing), it would need elemental damage, (perhaps they could be electric spikes, or acid spikes) in addition to (more) pierce dmg. Does this buff all friendlies in the area or just the drood?
Vine Mine
I know this spell has been changed on NS4 but is it currently working as it states in the wiki? If so it looks pretty decent.
Slay Living (Drood ed.)
More of a nature spell, maybe double the damage with another elemental type for the drood version.
Barkskin (Drood only extensions)
Level 1-6 +3 AC | Level 7-12 +4 AC | Level 13+ +5 AC
Level 20-29 +6 AC | Level 26-35 +7 AC | Level 36-40 +8 AC
Greater Stoneskin (Drood ed.)
Grows with epic levels beyond 20/+5
something like; Level 20-29 25/+6 | Level 26-35 25/+7 | Level 36-40 25/+8
or: just drop the '+' all together and make it flat DR with a larger damage pool per caster level...
Finger of Death (Drood ed.)
Droods cast it at a higher level, so it should do more damage.
Droods also have WAY too many disadvantages spell-wise, some spells are aoe or short-range. Clerics get various heals that can be cast instead of the slotted spells, droods get summons that are mostly weak and useless (NWN design), and when it boils down to it, they have only a handful of unique spells which are pretty weak, if they even do any damage at all. NS4 has done some nice dev work to make those few spells a bit more usable, but really, they don't compare to mage or even cleric spells.
Also, a bunch of spells that could be great like the various flame and electicity spells suffer from the 0 damage problem due to nearly everyone having evasion, or high reflex saves that cut the damage in half.
In addition to giving blood frenzy a speed-bonus, perhaps some other spells could be beefed-up:
Blood Frenzy
Keep same +Hasted speed increase. -like was said earlier, make it drop if you shapeshift into dragon form (you could allow it to work for other forms since they are mostly melee so they suffer the same need for haste as any other toon).
Creeping Doom
Like was said before, this spell can be easily avoided and mostly ignored by most people but the changes seem decent. Perhaps it should do elemental damage as well as the piercing?
Crumble
Perhaps widen the scope to unbreathing creatures: constructs, elementals, PMs, undeads, etc.. for the normal damage.
The destructive force should do 'something' to living things, it can unravel the structure of a construct so it should cause some pain to the living also, maybe half damage?
Drown
DC needs a bigger bump for this to be useful, high fort toons with spellcraft good luck ever landing a hit with this as it is. Could maybe do half damage for a successful save?
Elemental Swarm
From what I've read the summons this spawns aren't modified by the normal bonuses, it's more of a way to soak hits/focus, or split IGMS the summons aren't much of a threat to epic level anything.
Flame Lash
One of the many Reflex 1/2 spells that most pvp toons are immune to due to evasion, such a cool looking spell maybe worthwhile if the save was removed all together.
Healing Sting
Due to the fort save 1/2, this spell needs to be doubled in damage/healing power to bring it on-par with mages. Maybe take it a step further and add a speed reduction to the target (to make it just like Mind-flay that wow shadow priests have.. heh).
Inferno
Looks promising, I know on occasion while leveling, I've had this hit me from a mob and it causes some issues, possibly to make it more interesting; in addition to the damage, have it lower movement speed, or lower AB/AC? The target's attention will be partially focused on the fact that he's burning so...
Infestation of Maggots
Remove SR, Remove save? Add some elemental damage per round (similar to Melf's acid arrow but with the disease on top)
Quillfire
I know it's a lvl3 spell, but perhaps a bit more damage output would make it more useful. A lvl40 drood maximizing this would be 46 damage...not exactly OP. I do like the ns4 changes but damage is really lacking.
Stonehold
I know this one has changed to something of a 1-shot spell, my suggestion would be to make this more similar to Flesh to Stone, I love the modifications to that spell! OR you could have it auto-strip FoM and apply the hold/paralysis if the target is not otherwise immune, if they are immune to paralysis, then they would still suffer (some of?) the other effects like movement speed, dodge ac, etc..
Spike Growth
WOW! A damage shield for droods - The only issue is the duration is SO short it's pretty useless, look at Death armor, does MAGIC damage, is extendable and lasts pretty much forever and ever and it's a level 2 spell. To make this spell worth casting (and spell-focusing), it would need elemental damage, (perhaps they could be electric spikes, or acid spikes) in addition to (more) pierce dmg. Does this buff all friendlies in the area or just the drood?
Vine Mine
I know this spell has been changed on NS4 but is it currently working as it states in the wiki? If so it looks pretty decent.
Slay Living (Drood ed.)
More of a nature spell, maybe double the damage with another elemental type for the drood version.
Barkskin (Drood only extensions)
Level 1-6 +3 AC | Level 7-12 +4 AC | Level 13+ +5 AC
Level 20-29 +6 AC | Level 26-35 +7 AC | Level 36-40 +8 AC
Greater Stoneskin (Drood ed.)
Grows with epic levels beyond 20/+5
something like; Level 20-29 25/+6 | Level 26-35 25/+7 | Level 36-40 25/+8
or: just drop the '+' all together and make it flat DR with a larger damage pool per caster level...
Finger of Death (Drood ed.)
Droods cast it at a higher level, so it should do more damage.
Re: Caster druid
I started to play NS4 couple of weeks ago. Played on NS 3.5 for some years.
Can't say why but I choosed to start a druid toon, a class I've never played before. Probably because in such a low magic module (at least lower magic compared to NS 3.5) I guessed it was a more viable class then other ones.
I had a good time at lvl up till lvl 28 and now things became much more tougher: it's like going from 1 to 10 in a difficult scale of 1 to 10 in one blow (from lvl 27 to 28).
Beside that I'm a bit discouraged of reading this post. I relay on spells and dragon shape to fight stuff all around. Dragon shape doesn't seem that good though...as far as I've seen it can't tank and can't kill stuff fast enough to be killed first (though I've to admit I tested it on the starting area of HoD, which probably isn't the best to start with).
After lvl 28 the solar can't help anymore and I can't manage to keep him alive with spells nor to kill mobs before they turn on me and get overwhelmed. That happens mainly because druid can't survive kd or move fast enough to get space and time to cast.
Playing druid as caster involves getting some source of speed which would definitely breaks spells slots and/or spell effectivness (DC and SP), ending up in a toon that move faster but cast far less effective spells (i.e. not comparable with the gain a PM gets in exchange of spell effectivness loss).
So, there's no viable build for a druid caster but the one to support other players, which of course is far less effective then cleric ones.
I'm trying to focus on the dragon shape and related feats (epic spells), but of course that's not an easy shape to play with, no to mention it's oversized for indoor fights.
Can't imagine what could be changed to make things more balanced for druids, haven't played long enough to state something usefull.
I can only hope our devs would dig into it and get something out of the hat to save all the druids of Aetheria;)
Can't say why but I choosed to start a druid toon, a class I've never played before. Probably because in such a low magic module (at least lower magic compared to NS 3.5) I guessed it was a more viable class then other ones.
I had a good time at lvl up till lvl 28 and now things became much more tougher: it's like going from 1 to 10 in a difficult scale of 1 to 10 in one blow (from lvl 27 to 28).
Beside that I'm a bit discouraged of reading this post. I relay on spells and dragon shape to fight stuff all around. Dragon shape doesn't seem that good though...as far as I've seen it can't tank and can't kill stuff fast enough to be killed first (though I've to admit I tested it on the starting area of HoD, which probably isn't the best to start with).
After lvl 28 the solar can't help anymore and I can't manage to keep him alive with spells nor to kill mobs before they turn on me and get overwhelmed. That happens mainly because druid can't survive kd or move fast enough to get space and time to cast.
Playing druid as caster involves getting some source of speed which would definitely breaks spells slots and/or spell effectivness (DC and SP), ending up in a toon that move faster but cast far less effective spells (i.e. not comparable with the gain a PM gets in exchange of spell effectivness loss).
So, there's no viable build for a druid caster but the one to support other players, which of course is far less effective then cleric ones.
I'm trying to focus on the dragon shape and related feats (epic spells), but of course that's not an easy shape to play with, no to mention it's oversized for indoor fights.
Can't imagine what could be changed to make things more balanced for druids, haven't played long enough to state something usefull.
I can only hope our devs would dig into it and get something out of the hat to save all the druids of Aetheria;)
Re: Caster druid
I was in a mixed party and thought somebodies druid was a cleric for about 2 hours cause alls it was doing was healing everyone, Healing = Win
::DD:: Minister of Hatemongering and Enemy Carpaccio
:MADD: Resident SlackMaster and KittenPuncher
:MADD: Resident SlackMaster and KittenPuncher
Re: Caster druid
Arawindor, melee built dragonshape druids are amazing. But if you build for melee you can forget about casting since you won't have autoquicken or discipline. Also you need at least one +4 book to make one.
Caster on the other hand, eww...
Caster on the other hand, eww...
xXenox
Re: Caster druid
eh, blinding speed dragon shape druids can be made without any books. +4 books are only necessary if you are determined not to use any feats on wisdom or dex. You could probably build one with auto-quicken if you sacrifice in other areas as well. The issues are not having any discipline unshifted and losing all of your bonus spell slots when you shift, including all the new ones that mining gave druids.
Sebastian (TSS) Doc - Rufio of (TSS) - Dagr (TSS)
Raijin {FoN} - Arcadia {FoN} - Geb {FoN}
Raijin {FoN} - Arcadia {FoN} - Geb {FoN}
Re: Caster druid
So melee druid build need that blinding speed feat?! Please give me a cue on how will stats (AC/AB) grow with dragon shape. At lvl 29 I hit AC 49 in red dragon shape using +3 armor and shield (large one) and +4 gloves. The skull harvester in HoD got 49 base AB so can't tank them at all nor can my solar. Sadly they should be CR 30 or even lower?! So where can I go to exp, how can I fight such stuff? Shouting all the time for a party and never got an answer;(Daltian wrote:Arawindor, melee built dragonshape druids are amazing. But if you build for melee you can forget about casting since you won't have autoquicken or discipline. Also you need at least one +4 book to make one.
Caster on the other hand, eww...
Back to the build, I stil have 7 feats to spend towards lvl 40. Planned to take:
+1 wis to end up with even wis (34)
epic mage armor (can't think to survive without that +5 AC)
armor skin (extra +2 AC)
epic warding: I'm uncertain about this one, but the 15/+8 could help casting stuff while not shifted and it's an extra +5 soak in dragon shape
knockdown and imp knockdown: so I can quickslot it and and have it more effective
for the last feat I'm uncertain about epic focus conjuration, epic skill focus on discipline or hellball
Perhaps it's all wrog and I should forgive about AC feats and just relay on damage resistance/reduction?! If so I should prolly rebuild all to not take expertise and imp expertise... well, if so, I would change class and go for some more solid build like clerics one
Anyhow I understand druids can play both meleer and caster roles but they haven't got chances to master either of them unless something is going to change
any suggestion will be very appreciated
Re: Caster druid
Druids can't take epic mage armor or epic warding. Only sorcs and wizards can take those.Arawindor wrote:So melee druid build need that blinding speed feat?! Please give me a cue on how will stats (AC/AB) grow with dragon shape. At lvl 29 I hit AC 49 in red dragon shape using +3 armor and shield (large one) and +4 gloves. The skull harvester in HoD got 49 base AB so can't tank them at all nor can my solar. Sadly they should be CR 30 or even lower?! So where can I go to exp, how can I fight such stuff? Shouting all the time for a party and never got an answer;(Daltian wrote:Arawindor, melee built dragonshape druids are amazing. But if you build for melee you can forget about casting since you won't have autoquicken or discipline. Also you need at least one +4 book to make one.
Caster on the other hand, eww...
Back to the build, I stil have 7 feats to spend towards lvl 40. Planned to take:
+1 wis to end up with even wis (34)
epic mage armor (can't think to survive without that +5 AC)
armor skin (extra +2 AC)
epic warding: I'm uncertain about this one, but the 15/+8 could help casting stuff while not shifted and it's an extra +5 soak in dragon shape
knockdown and imp knockdown: so I can quickslot it and and have it more effective
for the last feat I'm uncertain about epic focus conjuration, epic skill focus on discipline or hellball
Perhaps it's all wrog and I should forgive about AC feats and just relay on damage resistance/reduction?! If so I should prolly rebuild all to not take expertise and imp expertise... well, if so, I would change class and go for some more solid build like clerics one
Anyhow I understand druids can play both meleer and caster roles but they haven't got chances to master either of them unless something is going to change
any suggestion will be very appreciated
It sounds like you just need better gear, you are still wearing level 16 gear. Fortunately if you are pure druid, you can become a master artisan leather crafter. Work on that and craft yourself some leather armor, a belt, gloves, a cloak and some boots. Be sure to upgrade all of those to level 30. Some of that stuff can be replaced later, but some of it is so good that you might be using it forever. The belt in particular is one of the best on the server. Note that Attack bonuses and bonus damage on gloves do not help when in dragon shape, dragon shape always has a standard enhancement bonus and damage on their claw attacks depending on the shape you are in. Just wear gloves that give the best str bonuses for ab purposes.
If you don't want to go the crafting route, or if you still need some pieces of gear that leather crafting won't get you, you'll need to work skara and isle of dreams until you have a good collection of level 20 gear and hit the bosses for some level 25 stuff. After that, you can go to the elemental planes for more level 25 stuff before trying halls of the dead. Generally challenege ratings at high levels are intended for builds that have the appropriate gear, and most players after their first few 40's have built up a collection or knows how to get what they need. I recommend being proactive about it and asking party members how to get things and at what level you should start looking for those things. When you are just starting, most of the gearing up is done retroactively. For most items you actually need to be a higher level than the item's minumum level to farm it easily.
Dragons can get ok ac's if you have the right gear (and it helps if you are a githzerai), but it is true that you'll need to rely on damage reduction some. Dragons get some bonus damage reduction themselves, which helps, but it is very beneficial to wear the proper damage reduction types based on the enemies you'll be facing. Carrying a few different shields and armors to cover different damage combinations is a good idea. Keep in mind that your shiny named shield or armor that you won in a loot roll isn't always better than a piece of generic gear if the damage resistance is the wrong type. Keep in mind that the dragon with the highest str score isn't always the best to use. The brass dragon in particular has the lowest AC and a vulnerability to a common element, which can be problematic.
I haven't been on much lately, but if you have any specific gear desires I can show you how to get them if I am around.
Sebastian (TSS) Doc - Rufio of (TSS) - Dagr (TSS)
Raijin {FoN} - Arcadia {FoN} - Geb {FoN}
Raijin {FoN} - Arcadia {FoN} - Geb {FoN}
Re: Caster druid
I am not sure, but I think dragonshape has knockdown. And even if it doesn't and you take it you for sure don't need improved knockdown since your size size is already huge.
xXenox
Re: Caster druid
Thanks Rufio for the help, now at least I know what to do.
Not sure about Imp knockdown... can be handy with elemental shapes?! I mean, will them have enough AB to have good use of that feat? As far as I've seen they wont get past 52 AB weather dragon form should hit 62+ AB
Since I can't take EMA nor EW I will go for
+1 wis
armor skin
epic prowes
epic spell focus conj
hellbal
and 2 more feats for what? knockdown, epic skill focus discipline? or perhaps imp unarmed strike and stunning fist (the DC should end up at 48)?
Anyone know how the DC of dragon breath form is calculated?
thanks all for the replays
Not sure about Imp knockdown... can be handy with elemental shapes?! I mean, will them have enough AB to have good use of that feat? As far as I've seen they wont get past 52 AB weather dragon form should hit 62+ AB
Since I can't take EMA nor EW I will go for
+1 wis
armor skin
epic prowes
epic spell focus conj
hellbal
and 2 more feats for what? knockdown, epic skill focus discipline? or perhaps imp unarmed strike and stunning fist (the DC should end up at 48)?
Anyone know how the DC of dragon breath form is calculated?
thanks all for the replays
Re: Caster druid
I'm a little unsure if the effects of improved knockdown in dragonshape, but from the discussion page on the nwn wikia about improved knockdown:
Nothing more has been said on the subject there, and I am not sure how to test it to prove if it is true, but improved knockdown could potentially be very effective in dragon shape if it works as described.How does this feat function if you are already considered to be huge in size (as in dragon shape)? There is no size category higher than huge listed for modifiers to knockdown discipline checks, so is there no change, or does your opponent still lose 4 from their discipline check? 74.131.48.90 08:41, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
- I believe there is provision for one size larger than huge within knockdown. WhiZard 10:10, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
Sebastian (TSS) Doc - Rufio of (TSS) - Dagr (TSS)
Raijin {FoN} - Arcadia {FoN} - Geb {FoN}
Raijin {FoN} - Arcadia {FoN} - Geb {FoN}
Re: Caster druid
It used to add ab. so you have a higher ab with the knockdown than without.
But dunno how it is now.
But dunno how it is now.
Re: Caster druid
To test:Rufio wrote:I'm a little unsure if the effects of improved knockdown in dragonshape, but from the discussion page on the nwn wikia about improved knockdown:
Nothing more has been said on the subject there, and I am not sure how to test it to prove if it is true, but improved knockdown could potentially be very effective in dragon shape if it works as described.How does this feat function if you are already considered to be huge in size (as in dragon shape)? There is no size category higher than huge listed for modifiers to knockdown discipline checks, so is there no change, or does your opponent still lose 4 from their discipline check? 74.131.48.90 08:41, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
- I believe there is provision for one size larger than huge within knockdown. WhiZard 10:10, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
Make a KDer with 80 AB, and a foe with 100 + necessary disc to have no chance of being KD'd, ever. Then, up your AB until you can KD him with KD or IKD.
Bargeld wrote:Overall, I think most would agree that a pure rogue is probably the worst build on the server.
Re: Caster druid
ok, done some tests and got bad news....
In dragon form I KD (not improved KD though, just the bonus feat from dragon form) some "small" mobs (Thieflings)...well, the character sheet shows 46 AB (on first round attack) and the log reports x+46 with the KD attempt; so it seems it doesn't apply for any bonus at all, weather the dragon form should be at least 2 or 3 sizes bigger then thiefling...
I'll ask some ppl in game to do more accurate tests but I fear there's something wrong with that feat in dragon shape
In dragon form I KD (not improved KD though, just the bonus feat from dragon form) some "small" mobs (Thieflings)...well, the character sheet shows 46 AB (on first round attack) and the log reports x+46 with the KD attempt; so it seems it doesn't apply for any bonus at all, weather the dragon form should be at least 2 or 3 sizes bigger then thiefling...
I'll ask some ppl in game to do more accurate tests but I fear there's something wrong with that feat in dragon shape