Spike Growth, Entangle, and Vine Mine

[Eldaquen]

Melee weapons are overpowered. If a druid has high enough will...then the druid would realize there is no weapon, therefore bend the weapon to whatever the druid wants it to be, and incapable of harming the druid. There is no spoon!

[Bargeld]

http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns/viewto ... 1#p1012501

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Druid elemental shapes (elemental immunes, some stuff based on type, good discipline boost, forms with good dex get finessable weapons. Elders have weapons and you get some elemental damage too.)
Type                  Weapon     STR  DEX  CON  DodgeAC TempHP
HUGE_FIRE_ELEMENTAL   ****       10   28   15   ****    ****           
HUGE_WATER_ELEMENTAL  ****       24   20   20   ****    ****         
HUGE_EARTH_ELEMENTAL  ****       26   10   20   ****   ****              
HUGE_AIR_ELEMENTAL    ****       15   28   10   ****    ****            
ELDER_FIRE_ELEMENTAL  SSword     10   34   17   ****    ****           
ELDER_WATER_ELEMENTAL Mrngstr    30   23   16   ****    ****              
ELDER_EARTH_ELEMENTAL LHammer    34   10   17   ****    ****              
ELDER_AIR_ELEMENTAL   LHammer    17   34   10   ****    **** 

34 base dex + 12 + greater dex feats (just for the dex part) = +18 +gdex/2 (your example is 6/2=3) so +21
items total to +23 hide/16 ms + shield
76+44 = 120

[Rufio]

dex feats do nothing for shifted forms. You get 34 dex if you like it or not.

elementals are huge, therefore -8 hide.

as a ghostwise (for max hide)
18 dex
43 ranks
10 esf
3 skill foc
2 stealthy
8 boots
7 cloak
7 armor
2 rings
4 small shield
2 halfling racial bonus
10 ghostwise token
4 one with the land
4 ranger outdoors (if you are a ranger)
-8 huge size
=116 hide

You could squeeze a few more out of the SD shadow evade or something maybe to reach 120, but it is hard as crap to do as an elemental.

[Eldaquen]

A SD elemental build only needs 21 levels of druid for epic elemental shape. 25 levels if that builder wanted unlimited shifts. 21 or 25 levels of druid does not make a good caster, the SD elemental most likely didnt bother to take any spell focuses, and did not waste feats or ability increases in Wisdom.

A SD elemental build with only 21 or 25 druid levels, vine mine would not have level 40 or spot reduction as I proposed. Without spell focuses and 21 or 25 druid levels the proposed damage from vine mine would be 5d4+1d6 (lvl 21) or 6d4+1d6 (lvl 25). Against another 40th level even with only 1 item with immunity and reduction of level 30 quality of 25% immunity and 20 reduction. A SD Elemental's vine mine's net damage after protection absortion would only be 0 physical and 1d6 acid of damage.

As far as spot reduction. An SD elemental build with 21 or 25 druid caster levels vine mine would only reduce spot by 5 points and the duration of the reduction for 10 rounds. So 5 reduction for 10 rounds is too much? Epic focused true sight is still +30 isn't it?

I assume a greater restoration, possibly even a lessor restoration could be set up to remove the spot reduction to help balance out the spell.

Reprint of the camoflague section:
Duration of skill reduction based on focuses of caster:
No focus: rounds = Caster level/2
Focus: rounds = Caster level/2 plus 5 rounds
Greater focus: rounds = Caster level/2 plus 10 rounds
Epic focus: rounds = Caster level

Damage componet to camoflague. I propose piercing due to the stinging affect of the irritants that make up this type of mine. Caster's spell focuses increase the damage due to potency of the mine's componets gained with skill and knowledge the focuses provide.

Camoflague pierce damage:
No focus....................1d4 per 5 caster levels plus 1d6 acid
Focus.........................1d6 per 5 caster levels plus 1d8 acid
Greater focus..............1d8 per 5 caster levels plus 1d10 acid
Epic focus...................1d10 per 5 caster levels plus 1d12 acid

Pierce damage
Caster level............................No focus............................Focus.........................Greater Focus.......................Epic Focus
9th.........................................2d4+1d6 acid....................2d6+1d8acid...............2d8+1d10acid......................2d10+1d12acid
10th.......................................3d4+1d6 acid....................3d6+1d8acid...............3d8+1d10acid......................3d10+1d12acid
15th.......................................4d4+1d6 acid....................4d6+1d8acid...............4d8+1d10acid......................4d10+1d12acid
20th.......................................5d4+1d6 acid....................5d6+1d8acid...............5d8+1d10acid......................5d10+1d12acid
25th.......................................6d4+1d6 acid....................6d6+1d8acid...............6d8+1d10acid......................6d10+1d12acid
30th.......................................7d4+1d6 acid....................7d6+1d8acid...............7d8+1d10acid......................7d10+1d12acid
35nd......................................8d4+1d6 acid....................8d6+1d8acid...............8d8+1d10acid......................8d10+1d12acid
40th.......................................9d4+1d6 acid....................9d6+1d8acid...............9d8+1d10acid......................9d10+1d12acid

[Bargeld]

hehe ok, ditch the elem and consider epic drow (con moi)

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Epic versions 
Type                  Weapon     STR  DEX  CON  DodgeAC TempHP SPELL1        SPELL2
KOBOLD_ASSASSIN_EPIC  Scythe     39   **** **** 3       20     BloodFrenzy   **** 
LIZARDFOLK_EPIC       Whip       **** **** 39   4       60     ****          ****  
MALE_DROW_EPIC        Shortsword **** 39   **** ****    40     Darkness      UltraVis

39 dex, not huge

[Eldaquen]

For that matter, fire elementals should give off a natural light. If they don't they should. If an Hips build gives off light from an item or light spell cast against that is -10 to hide. Fire elementals should give off red light 10' because they are on fire.

Azara dwarf and fire genasi should as well for that matter.

Earth Gen's give off a green light, I assume that gives any earth gen SD -10 to situational hide. Fire elemental, fire gen and azar dwarf I would assume do to.

[Rufio]

hehe ok, ditch the elem and consider epic drow (con moi)

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Epic versions 
Type                  Weapon     STR  DEX  CON  DodgeAC TempHP SPELL1        SPELL2
KOBOLD_ASSASSIN_EPIC  Scythe     39   **** **** 3       20     BloodFrenzy   **** 
LIZARDFOLK_EPIC       Whip       **** **** 39   4       60     ****          ****  
MALE_DROW_EPIC        Shortsword **** 39   **** ****    40     Darkness      UltraVis

39 dex, not huge

I can get more hide by not being a shifter. con moi is losing out on 4 hide from going from small to medium size, and I don't have to spend 5 druid and 17 shifter level for hips, only 5.

Nothing about drow form grants any hide, except for maybe it's dex score. I can devote 22 levels to sd and get a killer shadow evade and get way more hide than con moi.

[Bargeld]

I'd also challenge you to make a good spotter in SL. Honestly, it is very difficult to achieve really high spot (120+). Arcane casters keep getting thrown around as the 'spotter mage' to beat, but their ability is actually not as good as a wis based listener. Sure +50 seems like a lot, but also remember that gear doesn't stack with that. Also consider that once a spotter/listener enters combat (casts the first spell) they get -10 to spot as well. That means the first spell needs to be a mords, breach, or gdispel (can't remember offhand which one debuffs camo and OwL). 10 rounds is more than enough time to sneak in and gank a relic.

[Eldaquen]

Any dex based SD build should be able equal or do better than shifter in epic drow. Base at start 20 + 10 stat increase in dex + +4 dex tome + +8 dex boots + 4 from greater dex = 46. What is so special about shifted form with 39 dex?

[Bargeld]

They get all the other buffs that come with it... and shapes... they get versatility.

[Eldaquen]

SL doesn't have clerics?

[Eldaquen]

Shifted forms stats are fixed. Tomes do not stack, dex from boots do not stack, greater dex feat does not stack with forms set stat. Only a spell such as cat's will stack with shifted form. So at best, epic drow shape with 39 dex and a max roll cat's of +5 is 44 dex. Its the items not the stat.

[Bargeld]

So does everyone else.. and that is about ALL we get, wis based. The point is that the arcane IGMer is not the class to beat, as has been repeatedly mentioned.

[Bargeld]

I see differing views on the boot stacking here... rufio sez it adds to elem form, yet elda says it doesn't. I seem to remember that the dodge AC bonus is 2x and that monk wis ac is dropped. Boots +dex should stack.

So after thinking about it, and how semi off-topic we have gotten, I would like to bring us back to the spells you are working on. Again, I'm not trying to (ultimately) stop progress, I'm just being a Devil's Advocate in that druids shouldn't be top of the to-do list. When suggesting ideas, I would think that giving numbers and progressions in such detail are a bit over the top. Since the devs *should* know all the little things we are debating here, let them decide the numbers. We just suggest the concepts

[Eldaquen]

I said the dex from boots does not stack. Ok I remembered this incorrectly. Looked at in game and the dex is carrying over. Got gloves and boots confused. Sorry.

So to amend prior post: epic drow with 39 dex +8 dex and +4 from spell (capped at +12 total from boots and spell) is 51. But without blinding speed. Any other build with that much dex would have blinding speed.