Epic Mage Armor nerf........

[Rogue2x]

Then build one in a different faction.

If you can't build a melee toon with an ab at LEAST in the high 50s, you need to talk to some people about how to do that, and can't talk responsibly about ac nerfs. An AB in the high 50s is enough to hit anyone with an AC in the high 70s. And high 50s ab is run-of-the-mill nowadays, which is what made the 70s ac balanced, and necessary for those casters to survive.

[Daltian]

Hiting somoene once a round if you roll 18+ will not exsactly do you any good so please don't say that mid 50's ab can hit mid 70's ac. You have more chance to roll 20 with other 3 or 4 attcks and hit then to score a hit with mid 50's ab on mid 70's AC.

And add to that concealment and you actually never hit, at least not as much as you need to kill a mage that is dishing out 2 spells per round.

[cRaZy8or5e]

Then build one in a different faction.

If you can't build a melee toon with an ab at LEAST in the high 50s, you need to talk to some people about how to do that, and can't talk responsibly about ac nerfs. An AB in the high 50s is enough to hit anyone with an AC in the high 70s. And high 50s ab is run-of-the-mill nowadays.

70 AB will regularly whiff against 80 AC cuz you only got a 50% chance to hit. It's very frustrating let me tell ya

[Bargeld]

Add size factors, tumble, dodge feat, environmental factors to it also.

*bump*

[Rogue2x]

so what you're saying, Daltian, is that you want any sort of melee toon, to be able to totally annhilate any caster? Without a caster being able to sacrifice anything to help that out a little?

As far as I know, you're the only one actually complaining about the ac, everyone else seems to be saying the same as me: it was balanced at +12, and fun.

[Ajantis.]

Unfortunately the vision of the way the factions originally were set up, and how the server has evolved into, has created an interesting quagmire.

[Daltian]

Please look again if you think I am the only one.

[Alkapwn]

NC has the most amazing melee build there is. Its a friggin unstopable juggernaut of pain. Its about your party not about the a single toon. I think thats what the TEAM is trying to encourage i beleive

[Lokey]

It can wait until next week. Community project: submit a perfectly balanced version for everything that can be built in the 4 factions that can get the feat.

Unstoppable juggernaut of pain

[mining monk]

Maybe wizards are supposed to be in the background slinging spells while the tanks keep the others off of you. I dont recall wizards ever supposed to be pushing the 80+ AC limit in any D&D game.

No. In DnD they get this instead:

The ability to:

Violet Veil: At 7th level, an initiate masters the seventh
and fi nal veil: the violet veil. This barrier destroys all objects
and effects that cross it, as if they were disintegrated. Living
creatures passing a violet veil must succeed on a Will save or
be shifted to a random place on a random plane (as the plane
shift spell). A violet veil is destroyed by a successful dispel
magic spell. A warding with this veil is the equivalent of an
8th-level spell.

Save, or be autokilled, and you can't hurt me. And Dispel DOESN'T destroy it 'cos I have this on top:

Indigo Veil: A 6th-level initiate can create the mighty
indigo veil. This veil prevents the passage of all spells or
spell-like abilities. Any creature crossing an indigo veil
must succeed on a Will save or become confused, as if by an
insanity spell. A daylight spell negates and is negated by an
indigo veil. A warding with this veil is the equivalent of a
7th-level spell.

And, even better:

Improved Metamagic (Su): At 8th level, the incantatrix has mastered metamagic to such an extent that whenever she uses a metamagic feat, the feat's level increase upon a spell is reduced by one (this can't reduce an increase to less than one level, or less than zero levels if the increase is already +0). For example, an incantatrix wizard could prepare a quickened fireball as a 6th-level spell instead of a 7th-level spell.

There is one other that applies to every spell, and another that applies to a given school of magic.

Thats -3,to a minimum of 1. Yeah, I'll quicken this *Spell X, most likely disintegrate* and maximize it, for +4+3-3 = +4. Hmmm... One can also get Arcane thesis, -1 for metamagic costs on A spell. This one doesn't mention "minimum one". So we have -4 MM on disintegrate. How about *twin* spell, we cast 2 per round, +4 is accounted for, and we can maximize it!

oh, and did I mention the brokeness of gate? You can gate in a solar to Wish for a ring of 3 wishes for a ridiculous amount of XP (1/4 of a level) then use those wishes to get more wishes through gate, from which you...

Oh yeah, and

There are other tricks. Prior to your current level you used the spell Genesis to create your own personal demiplane, where time goes by 14,400 times faster than on the material plane. Cast Gate to open a portal to your pocket plane and step through, now you will have one round less than 24 hours to act before anyone else gets another action. Cast spells through the Gate to destroy your opponents, rest and recover your spells, and then dismiss the Gate on the last round of that 24 hours, only to open a new Gate on the very next round and do it all again. On the material plane they'll see you step through the gate, then they'll be defeated faster than they can perceive, then the gate will close. If any of them are left, they'll get to act, and then on your next turn in the initiative another Gate will open up and you'll lay waste to them again. Repeat as often as necessary, you'll be completely invulnerable and you'll get a full day's worth of newly prepared spells and enough time to use them every single round.

Oh, and to be stupid beyond belief, wizards jut blew up the quasiverse.

Got it! Eschew Materials feat + Major Creation.

There's no book value listed for either Osmium or it's antimatter counterpart. Just summon Anti-Osmium to the limit of your casting ability in contact with the critter. (Point of order: given an Earth-equivalent density, and assuming it has the DR of rock at all points, it takes a 17th level caster to summon enough Anti-Osmium to fragment the planet. Imagine what a 50th could do.)

Osmium is 22610 kg/cubic meter. A 50th level caster summons 50 cubic feet, or a cube 3.7 feet to a side. This converts over to be roughly 15.25 cubic meters, for a final density of 344,802 kg. 1 gram of antimatter produces roughly a 43 kiloton reaction (doubling once the matter is added into the equation, so the detonation of 1g of AM in contact with 1g of matter is 86kt). We have 344,802,500 grams of anti-osmium, for a total yield of 29,653,015,000,000 kilotons. (these are metric tons of 1,000kg each, for a total of 29,653,015,000,000,000 kiloGRAMS of TNT) 1 lb of TNT does 3d6 damage, or, converting over, 0.454 kg of TNT does 3d6 damage. So, dividing 29,653,015,000,000,000 by 0.454 yields 65,315,011,013,215,859 increments of 3d6. So, multiply by three, and get 195,945,033,039,647,577d6 damage.

Congratulations, you've just done 195 quadrillion damage minimum. Your average damage is 685,807,615,638,766,519 hp.

685 quadrillion hp damage. That ought to blow through most DR. And it's not fire damage (even though TNT is usually thought of that way). It's just plain old force damage.

Soooo, still wanna make that point about "too much damn AC"?

EDIT: Finally found the level *20* build with nearly more AC than is even possible here (the absolute gimpy max is +20+20+20+20+20 from items = 100, +20+20 from dex and wis +10 makes 150 +8 tumble +2 armor skin = 160. Oh, and that includes EVERYTHING. 20 dodge, deflect, shield, armor, natrual, Dex, wis, tumble.) Add in level 21 and the build I post below gets Nigh Infinite AC.

Base: 10

Ability score bonuses (including magical enhancements):

+9 Dexterity bonus to AC: Dexterity 27
+16 Wisdom bonus to AC: Wisdom 40 (Monk class ability)
+16 Insight bonus to AC equal to wisdom bonus: Wisdom 40 (saint template ability)
+14 Charisma bonus to AC: Charisma 32 (Mystic Wanderer class ability)

Total: +55

Dodge bonuses:

+1 dodge bonus: Dodge feat
+5 dodge bonus: Combat Expertise feat
+3 dodge bonus: Fight Defensively with Tumble 5 ranks
+1 dodge bonus: Boots of Speed
+13 dodge bonus: Superior Expertise
(Yes, dodge bonuses stack)

Total: +23

Magic Item bonuses and bonuses from spells (not including those which enhance ability scores):

-0 Size penalty (medium)
+19 Natural Armor: Planetar
+5 Vest of Natural Armor (enhancement)
+8 armor: Bracers of Armor +8
+8 deflection: Armor of Darkness spell
+4 shield bonus: Sheild spell
+5 "special bonus that stacks with all others": +1 Defending Dagger with Greater Magic Weapon cast on it.
+5 "special bonus that stacks with all others": +1 Defending Dagger with Greater Magic Weapon cast on it.
+10 circumstance bonus to AC: Holy Star spell


Total: +64

That's a total modifier of +142

Total AC = 152

oh, and +2 if you care to add in a spell that was released after this.

[Cluster]

AC for any mage is going to start at 31 and work up from there. Thats the 10 base ac and 21 from armor/natural/dodge/deflection on gear.

Tumble adds 4 for pure, 8 mage/monk. Which brings it to 35/39. Dex to either build is going to add 7-9 depending on the stat points layout, bringing AC into the mid/high 40s. Wisdom AC for monk adds roughly about the, bringing the AC up another 7-9 for the monk. So the pure caster is in the 42-45 range and the monk/mage is 52-57 AC. That's assuming 7-9 wis/dex and accounting for the +4 from tumble. The +12 EMA brought the pure caster into a 54-57 range and the mage/monk upto 64-69. Now of course you can continue to bloat that AC with more wisdom, but now your really hurting your spells.

Now strictly speaking, even something like a mage/bard or mage/rogue is going to get the tumble bump, just not the extra 7-9 ac from wisdom. So even non mage/monk combos could get 57-62 ac.

Other sources of AC like armor skin are universal and any of the combo or pure can get. RDD/PM AC is restricted, and while RDD can be put together with monk, you really start to hurt your casting abilities. SR becomes a serious issue along with dispell DC and buff durations. Your really starting to be on the breaking point to where your overshooting the AC and making yourself more vulnerable to other types of attacks aside from melee.

Now, its not even really the ab vs ac that really gets me. Even with 65-70 ac you still get hit, and with warding nerfed to uselessness you have to rely on the robes you wear for any type of DR. Given that mages have quite a tough time getting reasonable HP, they still fall to melee fast. What gets me the most is that a pure caster is total bigby bait. Even an unfocused bigby can completly wreck most mages. Given that you have no discipline in a pure mage, your completly screwed with your no ac too. Getting a decent AC made it so that now you at least have a chance to dismiss it.

So, while some of the top ACs can reach 75, there are major weaknesses because of that. More commonly the mage/monk is going to be in the high 60s and low 70s with books and buffs. Non-monk mages looking to get some skills are able to get into the low 60s, and pure mages are in the mid 50s. That is with the +12 EMA. One way to balance things would be to scale up the EMA so that pure casters don't get nuked so hard. They're already down 10-15 ac compared to the hybrids. At least if the EMA stayed reasonable for them then they would stand a chance against things like bigbies and level 20s.

And if you do some kind of scaling to help keep the pure caster from being nuked, please put epic warding back to something usefull. 15/+8 is useless when there's so many +8 weapons floating around. I parse my combat logs, and my warding more often than not does nothing. How about giving the pure caster a +9 version, as there are no +9 weapons, therfore they'll at least have something to make up for a lack of shield DR. 20/+9 doesn't sound unreasonable given your still looking at a mid 50s ac with no discipline.

[Rogue2x]

It can wait until next week. Community project: submit a perfectly balanced version for everything that can be built in the 4 factions that can get the feat.

Unstoppable juggernaut of pain

Well, it looks like most of us still maintain that +12 WAS balanced.....

But if the devs/dms won't budge on +12 being too high, and players are saying +6 is too low, why not comprimise and go with half of that, +9 shield? Maybe throw us a bone and go +10?

And it's nice to not want a Nerf-a-geddon right before a relic event, but this alone is sort of a blanket-nerf, so many of us have mages, that need to be played much much differently now, and have lost a lot of what let them survive long enough to cast spells. Can we do anything about this BEFORE the event? Can we get a +9 now considering the massive feedback, and change it again later?

[frogofpeace]

so what you're saying, Daltian, is that you want any sort of melee toon, to be able to totally annhilate any caster? Without a caster being able to sacrifice anything to help that out a little?

As far as I know, you're the only one actually complaining about the ac, everyone else seems to be saying the same as me: it was balanced at +12, and fun.

I'm saying that you still get unstoppable spells and incredible AC - not much of a sacrifice. I agree with Daltian.

[cRaZy8or5e]

It can wait until next week. Community project: submit a perfectly balanced version for everything that can be built in the 4 factions that can get the feat.

Unstoppable juggernaut of pain

Well, it looks like most of us still maintain that +12 WAS balanced.....

But if the devs/dms won't budge on +12 being too high, and players are saying +6 is too low, why not comprimise and go with half of that, +9 shield? Maybe throw us a bone and go +10?

And it's nice to not want a Nerf-a-geddon right before a relic event, but this alone is sort of a blanket-nerf, so many of us have mages, that need to be played much much differently now, and have lost a lot of what let them survive long enough to cast spells. Can we do anything about this BEFORE the event? Can we get a +9 now considering the massive feedback, and change it again later?

Did mages lose the ability to kill things?

Uh no.

Did they lose the ability to sling defensive countermeasures?

Uh no.

Was EMA taken away entirely?

Uh no.

What's the problem again?

I agree with daltian too.

[Daltian]

Can at least one of you whining about EMA nerf tell me when it was last time you were actually killed by a melee toon in 1 on 1? And please don't say RDD dragon killed me just the other day, thats the other hot topic I would love to discuss.