Pure Barbarians

[-BannyD-]

Perhaps you're using the wrong build against a barbarian?

QFT

barbarians do not go down easy to melee combat. neither do pale masters. people have found ways to take down pale masters by attacking their weaknesses...find the barbarians weakness.

i dont think this thread has any merit anymore now that we know the Dev's stance.

[disastro]

actually my prime toon is a stalemate vs a pure barb. unhasted MA cleric vs barb == nobody wins. whatever. well, the barb wins by runaround and runaway, my toon being str based does not make for good ranged attack.

I fought a dm pure barb back in testing before they got the extra speed boost (on reflections) and we had much more interesting battles than I tend to get now. a lot of the back and forth strat-counterstrat is gone.

time will tell. many people said the same for pure fighter ('deal n00b!') and they got some rebalance anyway.

[disastro]

to be more specific: in the previous battles I felt like my tank was getting beat down by a Super Barbarian (the debuffs and regen work really well to give that uber barb damage dealin feel).

the speed now gives rise to a much more effective strategy for pure barbs (run around, maybe stun&hit, then run away). so balance issues aside it no longer feels like i am fighting a Super Barb like before, it's more like fighting a monk or other finesse class. hit and run doesnt sound barbarian-y, if that makes any sense. when i fight a pure fighter i DO feel like i am getting out-meleed by a master, which is fine and col.

if the goal of the pure classes is to generate a super version of that class, then as it has played out so far i dont get the right feel with barb.

this is distinct from whether these changes are balanced or beatable (and ANYTHING can be beat), more of a style thing.

[Blystos Re]

actually my prime toon is a stalemate vs a pure barb. unhasted MA cleric vs barb == nobody wins. whatever. well, the barb wins by runaround and runaway, my toon being str based does not make for good ranged attack.

This is precisely the point of my objection to this whole discussion. I have plenty of characters that would get theirs handed to them by a lvl 40 pure barbarian. Is the solution for the devs to make the lvl 40 pure barbarian easier to beat, or is it my responsibility to build a better mouse trap?

time will tell. many people said the same for pure fighter ('deal n00b!') and they got some rebalance anyway.

Yep.
I imagine that if things get out of hand, and Bishop's "Barbarian Army" comes to pass, they will get a re-work.

The barbarians are a fierce and brutal people who should be feared and respected as a formidable adversary...however, even the most formidable can fall.

[disastro]

actually my prime toon is a stalemate vs a pure barb. unhasted MA cleric vs barb == nobody wins. whatever. well, the barb wins by runaround and runaway, my toon being str based does not make for good ranged attack.

This is precisely the point of my objection to this whole discussion. I have plenty of characters that would get theirs handed to them by a lvl 40 pure barbarian. ...

In general i try to talk about balance issues by relating specific examples from personal experience. this keeps the discussion from floating into "well, MAYBE this could happen, or in THEORY this other thing," and brings it more into the realm of "these specific things did happen, here are the details, lets talk."

while it's important to recognize that not every build is meant to be effective versus every other build, i'd caution against instantly dismissing a real, specific piece of data before determining whether it's a paper-rock-scissors issue. in general i'd ask that people relate real experiences more often, not less. my examples related meleer-vs-meleer experiences, which at least initially seem valid when talking about barbarians.

again, i'm not asking for anyone to 'make my toon win,' i'm relating real world situations to the discussion at hand.

[Bishop99]

As far as functionality goes in pvp combat for the pure barbarian- it is a mess. Why would you make something with that much hp and damage immunity also have, for all pratical purposes, perma haste?

Ranged weapons and spells are not that great for killing dex based flat-footed ac speed demons with regenerate

I will back down on my 15% speed reduction to 10%...

I will settle for 140% speed. Think about it guys, you can still cast haste on them to give 150%.

[-BannyD-]

thing is, they dont have permahaste. they only have haste until they run out of rages.

from playing a barb, you can actually get pretty low on rages in a long battle or series of battles. the barbarian also has to let their current rage wear off completely before activating another for speed again...often you can be caught hitting rage preemptively, wasting one. or even lag can cause the barbarian to use an extra...ultimately, they dont have infinite rages and it does wear off.

i think there was a comparison to blinding speed already. blinding speed lasts long enough for most longer battles. blinding speed cant be dispelled by any means either. is there a problem with it?

not to mention, the barbarian puts a lot of feats and stats into getting their high DR and life. which seems to be your main beef -- unable to kill something speedy -and- tankish? without having a BASE 22 con and using three EPIC feats on damage reduction, the barbarian is probably twice as easy to kill...but they invest in these, sacrificing AB for longevity.

[Bishop99]

thing is, they dont have permahaste. they only have haste until they run out of rages.

from playing a barb, you can actually get pretty low on rages in a long battle or series of battles. the barbarian also has to let their current rage wear off completely before activating another for speed again...often you can be caught hitting rage preemptively, wasting one. or even lag can cause the barbarian to use an extra...ultimately, they dont have infinite rages and it does wear off.

i think there was a comparison to blinding speed already. blinding speed lasts long enough for most longer battles. blinding speed cant be dispelled by any means either. is there a problem with it?

not to mention, the barbarian puts a lot of feats and stats into getting their high DR and life. which seems to be your main beef -- unable to kill something speedy -and- tankish? without having a BASE 22 con and using three EPIC feats on damage reduction, the barbarian is probably twice as easy to kill...but they invest in these, sacrificing AB for longevity.

Thank you- you have made an excellent point. The haste is not perma, but turning it on takes a tiny bit of timing skill and it also cant be disrupted.

No there isn't a problem with blinding speed- you need to have very high dex and you also have to use a feat. On top of that, it doesnt last very long and you only get 1 use per day.

There are no requirements for getting DR from the pureclass bonuses- they get damage immunity without having to put 22 con and 3 feats.

I think the people defending barbarians have been making poor versions of them.

I think the players with good barbarian builds are being quiet because they know that they are only dieing on their terms or... when a timestop is used.

[-BannyD-]

well 1) i dont make poor builds

but on topic, my point with the DR feats and a 22base con is that without those (lets say 12base con)....the barbarian is much much easier to kill.

on its own, pure barbarian lvl 40 only gets 10/- DR...not too significant, i believe a lvl 9 dwarven defender gets 9DR? which is just as close....9lvls vs 40.

and without a high con, that barbarian (in this example) loses 200life. 200less life and almost half the amount of DR should he avoid the high con price and 3epic feats.

now if you want to discuss how the beneficial effects of DR increase exponentially as you increase the amount of DR, we can (actually no i dont want to, i dont want to get into the math of it)...but my point is just that to become this beastly tank the barbarian has to invest in a lot...or else he is nothing special.

im just trying to defend this because i know of some severe weaknesses that can destroy the barbarian...thus i dont think its overpowered.

[de_slider]

**Waves her hand again** 2 cents.....

I have fought 2 pure class lvl 40 barbarians with my pure fighter Lulu. 1 on 1 PvP. They both go boom... Lulu danced her jig... she beat the rage, she saved against the fear... and paralize...

Barbarians are very beatable.. as for their running speed.. if they don't die and run away, I strike that as a victory... and that's with only 1 use of her kd token because 99% of PvP is over well within 4 minute recharge time...

[-BannyD-]

Barbarians are very beatable.. as for their running speed.. if they don't die and run away, I strike that as a victory...

thats a good point too. retreat is often a victory for the uhh...non-retreatees?

[Nefarious]

Simple thing is ya need to think how to beat a PURE barb. I know.

[Aarkon Draco]

Barbarians are very beatable.. as for their running speed.. if they don't die and run away, I strike that as a victory...

thats a good point too. retreat is often a victory for the uhh...non-retreatees?

i view heal pot chuging the same way

[Gornickthy]

Hmm I will post my 2 cents that come from my observations and personal battle experiences. I like the idea of pure barbarians being tough as nails... thats what they are suppose to be. I do however have to agree that the speed is ridiculous. The first time I saw one I thought it was a monk. We already have the monk as a class so why do we need 2? I was kind of taken back when I found out that the little speed demon who kept trying the hit and run tactic of a monk was a pure barb. That is not what a pure barbarian is suppose to be in my opinion. In all my readings and game plays I was under the impression that barbarians were the most rugged and tough fighters to be found... not perma haste creatures.

Do I think the barbarian is to powerful? No. I do not believe that this is a good version of what a barbarian is though. Barbarians are suppose to be the melee version of primal rage, pure strength, and physical power... not a hit and run class. So in regards to the pure barbarian I could really not care less if they change it, but I would suggest it being looked at a little more closely. It just isn't what a barbarian should be. Anyway, thats my opinion of the class.

[Bishop99]

I appreciate all of the posts telling me that barbarians are beatable. I knew this. I would like to add a point to this; Just because something is beatable doesn't mean it is balanced.

Can you focus on the speed issue here for just a moment instead of telling me that barbarians aren't invincible?

With the exception of monks- every class requires some sort of magic/feat to reach the level of 150% movement rate for extended periods of time.

In PVP speed is a crutial factor. Having superiour speed means the battles are fought on your terms. A slower weaker link (a dispelled mage for example) is quickly destroyed by faster opponents.

PVP, before barbarians, had an awesome dynamic as far as movement rate supremacy goes. The fight was often determined by who could control speed the best. Haste, dispell, haste, slow, grease, FOM, bigsby's, dismissal are all examples of the elements of the speed control battle.

Barbarians take almost all of the speed control elements and throw them out the window. If you add in FOM and dismissal from ANY class that can use rods/wands, you have an almost guaranteed loosing situation for the side attempting to control the speed.

Now let me ask you this: Would barbarians suck with only 140% movement rate?
No.

They would still have 'natural' speed supremacy, which would only be surpassed by superior player skill in speed-control-dynamic AND EVEN THEN THEY WOULD ONLY HAVE A 10% ADVANTAGE.

What I'm asking for is really quite reasonable and it also brings back so much more of the great pvp dynamic.