Assassins

[Rufio]

it would still be effective with +1 dc per feat. Even a dc 50 stun is scary. As a hipser killer, most hipsers don't have huge fort saves, so it should still work fine. There are downsides of stunning of course just like everything else, and really I think most people realize the downsides of getting a dc 60 stun (try fitting that on a build and see what you have to sacrifice), but people have figured out ways to compensate. As of now, there isn't a dc based skill in the game that gets anywhere near the power of stunning fist.

[Bargeld]

...except sanct cleric and PDK fear.

[mining]

...except sanct cleric and PDK fear.

Well, stunning fist is far more ridiculous than either of them. You can get DC 71. Shadow Daze can also get to ~ (curse the wiki being down, but I want to say 60) and Harper Scout sleep can get to DC 53 too (and on a sorceror!)

[Blystos Re]

Meh...The thought of giving an assassin indoor HiPS leads me to visions of assassin being able to tank a room full of those who didn't invest heavily in spot.

I'd be more likely to support making their special attack better and/or giving them a speed boost to get away. They are not heavies, they have a very specific purpose in PvP and that is to eliminate a specific target. Expand their usefulness, sure. Up their survivability, by all means. Make SL the Relic Champions of Aetheria until HiPS is finally removed from the server completely? Mmmm...no, please.

Granted, I'm an old fogey and a stick in the mud for playing other factions, but I feel like there could be much better options.

Maybe change up their death attack so that it forces a respawn in PvP (or makes the character un-raiseable for 10 minutes)?
Maybe give them a token that will grant them a boost to dodge AC & tumble for 3 rounds?
Maybe give them a 100x speed boost for 3 rounds?

They should have some goodies, don't get me wrong. I just don't think indoor HiPS is one.

[Shadowalker]

Meh...The thought of giving an assassin indoor HiPS leads me to visions of assassin being able to tank a room full of those who didn't invest heavily in spot.

I'd be more likely to support making their special attack better and/or giving them a speed boost to get away. They are not heavies, they have a very specific purpose in PvP and that is to eliminate a specific target. Expand their usefulness, sure. Up their survivability, by all means. Make SL the Relic Champions of Aetheria until HiPS is finally removed from the server completely? Mmmm...no, please.

Granted, I'm an old fogey and a stick in the mud for playing other factions, but I feel like there could be much better options.

Maybe change up their death attack so that it forces a respawn in PvP (or makes the character un-raiseable for 10 minutes)?
Maybe give them a token that will grant them a boost to dodge AC & tumble for 3 rounds?
Maybe give them a 100x speed boost for 3 rounds?

They should have some goodies, don't get me wrong. I just don't think indoor HiPS is one.

Of this I agree.. all relic cradles.. even TC the home of the Ranger.. has indoor cradle...

By the way.. I have a lot of respect for the skilled assassin... in todays conditions.

[Alkapwn]

...except sanct cleric and PDK fear.

Well, stunning fist is far more ridiculous than either of them. You can get DC 71. Shadow Daze can also get to ~ (curse the wiki being down, but I want to say 60) and Harper Scout sleep can get to DC 53 too (and on a sorceror!)

they're both one offs and SC applied not really comparable to death attack and stunning fist which are devestating and no SC applied.

Anyhow. As i mentioned on a previous thread a hide/ms bonus of 1/2 of assassin levels would make them a smudge more competitive.

Reasons being.
1: Out of the worst of the spot builds currently deployed by SL/MA almost everyone of them can spot a drow/ tiefling assassin with out any troubles.
2: They're only corner sneakers. One shot only to get they're special attack. (compared to relative sd builds with higher hide/ms and spamability)
3: SL doesn't get rangers so there's no way to cheese them out to unspotable status
4: With little DR range and comparitively low ac's the threat they pose little threat to any toon thats paying attention. Therefore corner sneaking is they're only defense.
5: It's the "Shadow Legion" they should be be able at least to pull off something a bit more "shadowy" then cheesed out trickery sd's that are available to every other faction except AO
6: Least played Class in NS4. Do a database search. I bet there are more Harper scouts built then Assassins
7: Players should groan when someone logs one on just like we all do when Shifters,PMs,RDDs,DWDs,CoTs,PdKs log on
8: And most importantly It will give something Alkapwn to stop complaining about.

[mining]

...except sanct cleric and PDK fear.

Well, stunning fist is far more ridiculous than either of them. You can get DC 71. Shadow Daze can also get to ~ (curse the wiki being down, but I want to say 60) and Harper Scout sleep can get to DC 53 too (and on a sorceror!)

they're both one offs and SC applied not really comparable to death attack and stunning fist which are devestating and no SC applied.

Anyhow. As i mentioned on a previous thread a hide/ms bonus of 1/2 of assassin levels would make them a smudge more competitive.

Reasons being.
1: Out of the worst of the spot builds currently deployed by SL/MA almost everyone of them can spot a drow/ tiefling assassin with out any troubles.
2: They're only corner sneakers. One shot only to get they're special attack. (compared to relative sd builds with higher hide/ms and spamability)
3: SL doesn't get rangers so there's no way to cheese them out to unspotable status
4: With little DR range and comparitively low ac's the threat they pose little threat to any toon thats paying attention. Therefore corner sneaking is they're only defense.
5: It's the "Shadow Legion" they should be be able at least to pull off something a bit more "shadowy" then cheesed out trickery sd's that are available to every other faction except AO
6: Least played Class in NS4. Do a database search. I bet there are more Harper scouts built then Assassins
7: Players should groan when someone logs one on just like we all do when Shifters,PMs,RDDs,DWDs,CoTs,PdKs log on
8: And most importantly It will give something Alkapwn to stop complaining about.

Rangers have nothing do to with it. You can get 127 hide at the cost of DC, but you're going to be close to the cap as a ghostwise at the whopping cost of 1 DC. I understand how amazing darkness aura is. Might be advantageous to give Assassin hide bonus and a slight speed boost while indoors, again a-la ranger, unless they have monk levels?

[cRaZy8or5e]

Anyhow. As i mentioned on a previous thread a hide/ms bonus of 1/2 of assassin levels would make them a smudge more competitive.

I think this is an excellent idea. Keep the "corner sneak" flavor of assassins. I mean if they can HiPS what's the point of having a death attack. Additionally they do need some means of making them more competitive. They struggle to boost their hide and ms without a bard around and really Assassins shouldn't have to rely on other characters to make them excellent sneaks. Especially if they invest a lot of their "training/livelihood" into developing those stealthy skills, honed towards that one death strike.

[mining]

Anyhow. As i mentioned on a previous thread a hide/ms bonus of 1/2 of assassin levels would make them a smudge more competitive.

I think this is an excellent idea. Keep the "corner sneak" flavor of assassins. I mean if they can HiPS what's the point of having a death attack. Additionally they do need some means of making them more competitive. They struggle to boost their hide and ms without a bard around and really Assassins shouldn't have to rely on other characters to make them excellent sneaks. Especially if they invest a lot of their "training/livelihood" into developing those stealthy skills, honed towards that one death strike.

Last night I was spamming spells at (not Bargeld's, Alka's, my bad) assassin but staying far enough to not let him hit me, and he closed the distance when I cast a pair of spells (heal/NER, iirc) and got a death death attack off (i.e. stunned for always and eternity). Calls for more testing, methinks.

[Bargeld]

I don't recall this incident at all... i've been using my new 40 little fist stunner for the past couple days. I used Gem vs a FoN monk that was hidden in the cradle solo the other day. That's the last i remember using her. If you have combat music on and are in a live initiative, then para from death attack doesn't work. That is NWN hardcoded and I've never seen an exception. Combat music from your partymates doesn't count, so if you never rolled initiative you are bait. It you rolled initiative and have left combat for long enough (music may still be up due to on-map fighting) then you are bait.

[Alkapwn]

Anyhow. As i mentioned on a previous thread a hide/ms bonus of 1/2 of assassin levels would make them a smudge more competitive.

I think this is an excellent idea. Keep the "corner sneak" flavor of assassins. I mean if they can HiPS what's the point of having a death attack. Additionally they do need some means of making them more competitive. They struggle to boost their hide and ms without a bard around and really Assassins shouldn't have to rely on other characters to make them excellent sneaks. Especially if they invest a lot of their "training/livelihood" into developing those stealthy skills, honed towards that one death strike.

Last night I was spamming spells at (not Bargeld's, Alka's, my bad) assassin but staying far enough to not let him hit me, and he closed the distance when I cast a pair of spells (heal/NER, iirc) and got a death death attack off (i.e. stunned for always and eternity). Calls for more testing, methinks.

It was a fluke thing. I think it was cause he was running away from me for at least 2 rds and tapped the cradle without actually performing any aggro for more than that. I think healing spells don't count as an aggro action. Your rest light doesnt turn on when casting it. It's the easiest attack to safe guard yourself vs assassin.
yeah in retrospect after you spammed you 10 implodes on me unsuccessfully , (cracks knuckles) , then tried a couple searings you pretty much just ran around and healed without actually targeting me with anything for quite a few rounds.
Also proving my point when i walked in the room , Buffed as much a drow assassin can be without a bard around you spotted me effortlessly as any spotter could.
I have a spotter with 6 base wisdom that can spot 110 hide flawlessly without any effort at all.

I know i'm going to regret this but: (also take into account i've been playing here for 6+ years)

Take drow shifters as an example of one of the many builds that have far superior hide abilities. They get +1 hs/ms for every 2 shifter levels and Hips and 5d6 sneaks and the ability and versatility to take on other forms as well without having to sink a buttload into 2 stats. My Drow shifter has 68ac, reasonable saves all 40+vs spells, extremely reasonable ab, 700+ hps, armor/shield DR, Blindspeed, Epic Dodge and 13d6sneak attacks and pretty close to max hs/ms.

Compare that too SL's one and only unique Class.

Some more points to validate this improvement

1: FoM renders all paralyzing attacks of an assassin innane. Sorcs,Wizards, Bards,Clerics,Druids,Rangers,Pallys,Rogues,Pure fighters all have Fom easily available to them. So who does that leave Barbs,Monks, mixed fighter (high fort saves).
2: got to get back to work ........

[Alkapwn]

Double posting sorry....

And hooray for Pup !!! Gifts from the gods for assassins!!!!!
I am quite satisfied with the new additions albeit not have tested them yet I'll be sure to when i get home tonight!

Thanks again Pup, And thanks everyone else for their input on the subject of Assassins!

[Bargeld]

Agreed! I am excited to see how this works out. BG changes are exciting too, huzzah for evil!

[Ogami]

you want a drow hiding like a ghostwise halfling? You just want everything. Learn to build and play better? Oh its too late?

Assassin was powerful already, just nobody played it good.
I have never seen any assassin using traps in the right way.
Now you have tweaked to the uberness, no more excuses to cry... Keep crying they might give you portable nukes to auto-ban all the "red" or non buddies players.
Yes so you will be alone in the server saying "muahahaha" all day, I know you want this Then I don't want to think what will happen next...

Huzaah for the Balance! Have you ever seen a soccer match with 3 teams? They are usually 2 for a reason. Let's add rk to nc/tc and ao to ma/sl to have only 2 sides ( oh no please nooo! -muahahaha?) Have you ever seen a soccer match with 3 teams? They are usually 2.
Because it seems impossible (or unacceptable) to give these factions something competitive.

You know what I think? assassin isn't powerful enough, give them a bab of 40!

[mining]

I spotted you because you walked straight into my aasimar aura. -40 hide makes anything bait. I was at 86 spot, rofl.

Secondly drow shifters are not superior sneaks to HiPSers. They are relative to assassins. But you've already said that assassins shouldn't get HiPS. I'm confused?