Elimination of Cheese Builds

[The Hasselhoff]

I agree, nerf's suck.. PUPPIES RULE!!!

Less nerfing, more scoring, that's what I say.

[Throst54]

I want to take the idea of improving the single class individual a little bit further. Now, a monk in the NWN handbook gets Wis Bonus added to AC. What if this was modified slightly ( I have no clue how hard this would be). Take the 1 level monk and give Wis Bonus/5 and add that to AC. Now that means that a 19 cleric/ 1 monk will get whatever their Wis is cut by 1/5th before it is added to their AC. Now to persuade people to take more levels in monk, make it so that every two levels, the modifier (the 5), is reduced by 1. Effectively, a level 10 monk will get the full benefit of wis bonus to AC. This can be taken even further to reward someone who stays true to a certain class, so the level 12 monk gets let's say 1 and 1/5 X their Wis Bonus added to their AC, up to level 20 where it is 2 X their Wis Bonus added to their AC. This would apply for the saving throws for Paladins. Now I have to agree, a cheese like taking one class of sorc to get RDD is horrid, can the taking of the RDD class check for levels in sorc/bard, and delevel if they are not equal to lets say 7 or something?

ppl dont take the 1 lvl of monk for wis ac.. it's for evasion tumble and a few other things...

there really isnt any need for more nerfs (pertaining mutliclassing). and even if these ideas were used...whats stopping them from nerfing builds more bc the new cheese builds are being complained about? it just turns into an endless spiral that would ultimately end up with only pure class builds allowed.

the point of this is to limit the amount of cheese builds ppl will make, not to stop them... if that was intended then it would be put straight into making it so certain classes could only be pure... rather than doing that they are limiting those classes as to take away from thier advantages... notice take away from.. not totally stop them.. it's quite obvious that there will be cheese builds...

[DrakhanValane]

ppl dont take the 1 lvl of monk for wis ac.. it's for evasion tumble and a few other things...

Hah! I take 2 levels of monk for WIS AC! Oh, and the silly number of attacks with kamas is good too. The first level early on for some perks like the number of attacks with kamas :D (around 21-22) and the second at 37+ for 40 tumble.

[Lokey]

21-22 attacks? Wow...that's pretty broken.

[Zhorn]

I think he meant level 21 - 22. Though I'd hardly call that "early".

I'd maybe take a level at 7th so you can pump tumble to 10 and gain 2 AC and extra attacks, etc. Then take more later.

Have to weigh up getting those abilities sooner for immediate gain, or holding off til later for more benefit.

[DrakhanValane]

yes, level 21 or 22. lol

Attacks get as high as 10 per round if hasted and flurrying. Taking it at 21 ensures a pure fighter AB :) if taken at 22 you can have 25 tumble and thus 5 AC from it (instead of 4 at 21).

[Lokey]

Back on topic (kinda). The several impossible obstacles have been overcome.

Quick testing came out ok for various class choices, skill boosting feats and so on.

[Quiett]

Testing on which? The Skill point saving, or having to take 5 lvls of a class.

Thanks for the update

[nargileh]

We all know what they are. When somebody takes one lvl of a class to get the 1st lvl bonuses and the dumping of stored up skill points.

I have read many different theories on this topic. I believe there is a very simple way to eliminate these kinds of tricks and tactics. A thread I read suggested that one must take 5 lvls continuously in a new class when they decide to multiclass. To me this is kinda stupid considering many times i like to lvl up alternating between classes on occasion.

Instead of proposing ways to handle a supposed problem, you first need to prove it is a problem to start with, otherwise you're engaging in an exercise in futility.
Is the saving up of skill points, really a problem for NS4?
- Does it screw up balance? Everyone can multiclass and save up skill points can't they, so it doesn't affect balance.
- I know you can't save skillpts in D&D, but alot of things ain't like D&D on NS4 anyway.

If after a few months the majority of the builds walking around are sorc 39/pal 1 for example, then i'll believe it's a problem. Untill this happens i'd say, "IF IT AIN'T BROKEN DON'T FIX IT"

[Danhalen]

my 2 copper's worth; saving skill points makes you weaker while you wait to apply those points. there is trade off when not applying them immediately. so i see no problem with stockpiling the points.

[Zhorn]

I'm a pretty hard-core powergamer and I know skill point banking is a bad thing (from a balance point of view), as do most builders.

Much as I'll sorely miss it, I'm glad Lokey is implementing it. Hence why I put him in touch with another Builder who has already done it.

[Bob]

At some point, the consistent nerfing is going to have the exact opposite effect of what was initially intended with NS4 in regards to promoting diversity in character builds (not to mention sucking all the joy out of playing).

How long until the new definition of cheese build becomes the pally/CoT/X with enough AB to consistently blow Knockdown through the Discipline available to any character that isn't a dedicated strength melee build & high enough saves to laugh off pretty much anything else? In the long run, it's all relative to what is available.

I suppose I find it troubling that so many of these issues seem to stem from problems with single combat or attempts to bring the NWN ruleset in line with D&D 3.5. Party vs party PvP goes a long way to evening out the advantages a single player might have over another, but the game mechanisms which would promote that in a given faction aren't quite there yet (it has literally been months since my MA character has been back to Garagoth).

Adhering to a prescribed ruleset like 3.5 in the abscence of a human DM is also problematic. A coded system simply isn't capable of making judgement calls. Does the lawful good paladin that just jumped & killed a lawful good character from another faction deserve an alignment hit? Easy enough call if one of the DMs is present to make a judgement based on the situation. By extension, does a halfling cleric of Brandobaris (Stealth, Thievery, & Adventuring off the NS4 dieties list) deserve to use more than the alloted skill points in rogueish skills if only taking minimal rogue levels? Again, easy enough for a human DM to decide, but involves a judgement call a rigid PW script can't make. Worst case scenerio, you end up with a lame f***-around like City of Arabel, where you can't step out of bounds of the rabid anti-powergaming mindset (unless you know the right DM).

[Lokey]

It's really easy to be anti-pg/anti-metagame. Role players aren't going to crash the server for some trivial advantage after all.

How long until the new definition of cheese build becomes the pally/CoT/X with enough AB to consistently blow Knockdown through the Discipline available to any character that isn't a dedicated strength melee build & high enough saves to laugh off pretty much anything else? In the long run, it's all relative to what is available.

Bio Paladin--reign of terror, doesn't matter, you still get all the benefits.

Bio Munchkin Of Torm--It was balanced as a 5 level PrC and c.f. Pali, lol.

Bio Knockdown--the most powerful feat in NWN, there's no reason not to spam it until you get CTS unless it's against something huge for the powergamer.

Unfortunately, there's not much to melee combat without KD and Called Shot (also bugged/exploitable, sigh) for pure melee. C'mon NWN2...in the meantime it's possible to come up with something to replace these, but it might prove too time consuming.

[Beergoth]

I am fairly new to the forums and was going thru them and saw this topic. Has any decision been made on it?

[Lokey]

Pointless to make these kinds of changes now, only encourages using older characters.

Several impossible-seeming obstacles have been overcome, but there's still some outstanding gameplay design to work on to make everything work together (characters can be diverse in effectiveness without there being a god build).