Spike Growth, Entangle, and Vine Mine

[Daral0085]

Haste is also needed for catching. E.g. catching the AA shooting at you, or catching the hasted mage spamming IGMS. Catching the monk relic runner, catching other people when they run away to spam heals... why am I explaining this stuff? It should be self-evident to anyone who pvps.

[Amoenotep]

you don't have to catch players running away..just make fun of them for running

[Rufio]

you don't have to catch players running away..just make fun of them for running

You'd look kind of silly doing that after they kill you with arrows and spells.

*edit*

in this case it is the druid that is going to need to do the running, unless you want to be taking attacks of opportunity and getting all your spells disrupted of course.

[Bargeld]

Catching the monk relic runner

I LOL'd at this. Good luck catching a 30+ monk with anything hasted. Even if you think you are fast, blinding speed and haste have durations.

[Daral0085]

Catching the monk relic runner

I LOL'd at this. Good luck catching a 30+ monk with anything hasted. Even if you think you are fast, blinding speed and haste have durations.

Not catching them from behind once they have relic, but there are other ways you can catch toons. Think "interception" for one. You can use speed to position yourself in their return path, or you can use it to chase them down in cradle when they're waiting for cradle to be defeated. Remember, they have to sit around for nearly a minute while defender NPCs are getting killed or cradle is timing out. If you can drive them far enough away they won't get a relic, so they have to stay. Then kick in your blinding.

Anyway, even if you don't believe me, forget the monk part and lets just say "relic runners" in general and not monk relic runners in particular.

The fact that monk relic runners exist only servers to further prove the importance of speed, so it indicates quite the opposite of "haste is useless" if the retort is, "because other builds are faster".

[Amoenotep]

AoO's while casting? you don't use concentration as a skill? how bout combat casting or ICC so you don't take any at all while casting? lol at non casters.

i'd say haste is only important if you don't like to wait to get somewhere. DwD's do pretty good and their abilities lie in just standing there.

[Eldaquen]

In the propose that started this thread, each type of mine (as I envision) utilized 1 damage type. That way anyone can plan against a specific type or for 2. Yes if a druid sees your using slash and pierce, the logical next step is use the bludge damage causing one. Of course fighters and barbarians are doing this now with weapons, except they are utilizing 2 damage type weapons not just one. The idea was to give the druid something to use, instead of the standard she's using a druid, put your slash/pierce gear and mitigate the damage from dragon claws and pierce damage that certain spells cause.

Only 1 type per caster per map (so a camoflague, hamper movement and entangle can exist at once, but 3 hamper movements can not).
40th.......................................9d4+1d6 acid......................9d6+1d8acid..................9d8+1d10acid......................9d10+1d12acid
40th.......................................9d4+1d6cold.......................9d6+1d8cold..................9d8+1d10cold......................9d10+1d12cold
40th.......................................9d4+1d6sonic......................9d6+1d8sonic................9d8+1d10sonic.....................9d10+1d12sonic

I do not believe this is unbalance because of the armor and shield combinations available in NS4. Yes if immunity and reduction were not available and immunity not stackable then yes would be. But this is NS4. 50% pierce immunity and 20 reduction is available to any build. Yes casters and monks tend not to use a shield. Monk's receive the short end of the Twig (honorable mention *smiles*) however they accept this when the build is made. I didnt ask for magic, divine or elemental damage because, in my opinion the armors available reduce the damage and mitigate it ...thereby balancing. Otherwise there would be lots of weapons that would be considered overpowered.

From an objective calculation prespective: level 40 pure druid caster epic focused vs level 40 pure fighter with level 40 gear.
Mine would cause 9d10+12elemental. That is a max total of 90 physical plus max 12 elemental.
The fighter with same damage protection on both armor and shield would have 50% physical immunity and 20 physical reduction.
The net affect is immunity removes 45 physical damage and the reduction absorbs 20 physical leaving 25 physical damage and 12 elemental, assuming max rolls on damage, which is rare need nine 10 rolls in succession. Net damage inflicted of 37 (25 physical and 12 elemental).
At best damage is going to fall within a range of 30 to 60 physical damage output, mean plus 1 standard deviation. So if in more realistic in rolling terms using 75% of max the druid's spell would cause 68 physical damage and 9 elemental. In this example the fighter's armor and shield would absorb 34 from immunity and 20 from reduction, total phyical damage absorbed of 54. Net damage inflicted of 23 (14 physical and 9 elemental). How is that overpowered.

Ok your thinking what if the fighter expected a dragon and got a caster. Assuming same fighter wearing slash armor and pierce shield.
Max numbers:
Mine causing pierce damage from pure epic focused lvl 40 druid: 90 pierce damage plus 12 elemental.
Fighter's shield: 25% immunity and 20 reduction. Immunity will absorb 23 pierce and reduction another 20.
Net damage caused by mine: 59 (47 pierce and 12 elemental.

75% of max due to rolling of dice:
Mine causing pierce damage from pure epic focused lvl 40 druid: 68 pierce damage plus 9 elemental
Fighter's shield: 25% immunity and 20 reduction. Immunity will absorb 17 physical and reduction 20.
net damage caused by mine: 40 (31 pierce damage plus 9 elemental)

I do not believe that is overpowered.

Vine mine has a duration, it does not last forever and will expire causing no damage and no ill effect if no one comes near it. If your concerned that 3 could be placed near each other, I concede that is an issue and should not be allowed. Either allowing only 1 cast per caster or do not allow another cast within the blast radius of an existing mine. Glyph of Warding shows where it is placed, you know when your walking into it. I am not asking for the mine to be invisible, although that would be nice, however scripting is already long and I assume that should be saved for rogue set traps not a spell.

Fighters tend to have around 600 hps give or take 100 depending on the builders preferences and gear. How is 37, 23, 59 or 40 damage overpowered. Also a fighter has access to stone skin potions and elemental resist potions. Further reducing their exposure to damage if the spell was reworked as I presented. Earth gen token would absorb 10 points of damage. Elemental resist potions would absorb all of the elemental compenent of the mine as I presented. Epic DR would also absorb 9 points of damage. Barbarian DR would absorb further damage.

Mages have greater stoneskin, premonition, Epic mage armor, armor protection and those that have still spell feat shield protection. So mages and sorc are just as able to reduce damage from my proposal as a fighter would be.

Yes the numbers in maximun output and in the grid look forminable. But if you consider that die rolls are not going to give maximun output on every roll, the victum is going to have protections against the physical and elemental components of the mine, then I hope you see that the proposal is not overpowered. I set up so scales with caster level so a level 20 druid is unable to cause as much damage as a pure level 40 druid. Hopefully so that scalling balances this proposal to PVM use.

[Rufio]

AoO's while casting? you don't use concentration as a skill? how bout combat casting or ICC so you don't take any at all while casting? lol at non casters.

i'd say haste is only important if you don't like to wait to get somewhere. DwD's do pretty good and their abilities lie in just standing there.

You are right in one aspect, but oh so wrong in others.

You are right, I was wrong in saying you would take attacks of opportunity, but ICC? You have a pretty crappy build if you took that. Autoquicken does the same and more.

of course I would take concentration, but try casting through a critical hit. I think you have been playing cheese wiz too much

druids are a lot squishier than DwDs, in fact, everything is a lot squishier than a DwD.

[Rufio]

Also, I don't think you would be able to maximize a vine mine spell. You can't slot a maximized vine mine since the bioware version has no roll to maximize.

[Amoenotep]

Mages have greater stoneskin, premonition, Epic mage armor, armor protection and those that have still spell feat shield protection. So mages and sorc are just as able to reduce damage from my proposal as a fighter would be.

actually, the DR buff spells for all casters is gimped because the numbers don't go higher than the weapons that are on the server, something i'd like to change. EMA gives ac and no protection from damage. Armor/shield wearing mages are very effective, watch clerics/druids stand longer than mages with staves.

saying auto quicken is the sure fire thing for casters means your just forgot that according to some of you every char on this server is hasted...thus negating some of the auto quicken run and gun. also never taking an AoO ever can never be a wasted feat.

oh...and i hate players

[Rufio]

You don't want to be able to cast 2 spells per round? Suit yourself then.

[Eldaquen]

A claim has been made that druid casters are powerful enough as they are. I am hard pressed to think of any caster druid (pure or multiclassed) regularly used in PVP.

I am curious, how many caster druids are out there. So I now encourage any and all that have a caster druid to list them here. Not leather crafters that will never see the light of 40th level. Caster druids that are 40th level, or in process; that do not have or utilize dragon shape.

I will list all my druids as a show of good faith.
Caster versions no dragon shape:
Bellatrix Sterling (TSS) - multiclassed caster druid - had high hopes but DC's not near where they need to be - compared to saves available in NS4. (Sometimes I have the opinion that the depth of gear available that boast saves is overpowered, from a druid caster point of view.)
Avatrix - multiclassed caster druid - but uses the spell shapechange. Built asking for too many things and weak in all areas due to trying to do to much.

Neither are level 40 yet, nor do I use in relic pvp or intentionally seek out pvp with. However have used them to fight in pvp when the fight was instigated by someone else.

Due to multiclassing neither have hellball.

Druid Dragons, both 40th level:
Netya'nis - was supposed to be a caster that could fall back on dragonshape when had to. Built under different rules, before changes. Replaced by Ainu'loce.
Ainu'loce - focused on being a dragon, caster DC's to low to be effective in casting except for conjure based spells because built to have solar acompanyment.

Used Netya'nis in PVP, but retired. Use as a crafter now.
Use Ainu'loce a lot in PVP as dragon and buffer, but very ineffective as an offensive caster. Not that I don't try to deshift in order to put up an offensive spell, but tends to result in Ainu'loce being KD then killed.

Has anyone out there been able to use a druid as caster in pvp regularly, if so what is the builds name and what spells are you using? Not asking for shifters or elemetal builds. Spell based offense only please. Reason: point was made that druid casters are strong enough. Wish to see if there is a population of druid casters being used as an offensive caster that would support this claim.

[burrahobbit]

You don't want to be able to cast 2 spells per round? Suit yourself then.

No, hes arguing just to argue, and I like his style. Comparing a dwd need for speed vs a caster is just silly, but arguing just to argue is why i am on these boards. GO TELL IT ON THE MTN!! PREACH IT TEP!!

[Amoenotep]

i have a 35/5 druid/monk. no dragon caster only. he's slow and hot tempered. he only casts spells that hurt everyone including his friends. for the record though, i've only ever built 1 druid/shifter dragon on ns4 and i'll take watered down cheesetastic to a dragon any day.

[Rufio]

You don't want to be able to cast 2 spells per round? Suit yourself then.

No, hes arguing just to argue, and I like his style. Comparing a dwd need for speed vs a caster is just silly, but arguing just to argue is why i am on these boards. GO TELL IT ON THE MTN!! PREACH IT TEP!!

lol. I know and I fight back anyway.

but part of me enjoys it, so I don't feel that bad