Dragon Fear question

[Korr]

ever wonder why there are no 25 rdd builds. <-- cause it would be dumb. 30 rdd dragon takes 20 lvls of a useless epic class for 1 thing: the dragon. don't be deceived that there is some other gain. they are really hard to build. there are zero reasons to take epic rdd levels other than 30 rdd dragon.

but that shouldn't matter. the changes a few weeks back were centered on the final result not the path to get there.we said rdd's are harder to build. you said "so. just cause they are harder to build doesn't mean they should be better." or a similar sentiment.

same logic should apply now. 35 dc fear is useless.

- glow -

Screw the d12 hp for what 22 level? or 20 levels w/e it is. Forget the AC boost, theres NO reason to take 30 RDD other than dragon form. Feats are limited but build for them and its like free feats throughout epic levels!

[Tru3Fals3]

curious, what would the devs think about something like using intimidate, say 25 + 1/3 of intimidate score, dont think this is an rdd class skill though but that could balance it out. 21 ranks + say 10 from gear + 10 esf + 5cha, your looking at a dc40ish, which would require investment in feats, gear selection and skill points usage. thus negating the get-it-for-free factor.

just throwing something out there.

and shamed, if you have a will save under 30 at lvl 40 then you've got serious problems to begin with......

[Shamedmonkey]

curious, what would the devs think about something like using intimidate, say 25 + 1/3 of intimidate score, dont think this is an rdd class skill though but that could balance it out. 21 ranks + say 10 from gear + 10 esf + 5cha, your looking at a dc40ish, which would require investment in feats, gear selection and skill points usage. thus negating the get-it-for-free factor.

just throwing something out there.

and shamed, if you have a will save under 30 at lvl 40 then you've got serious problems to begin with......

Shamed doesn't have that problem, he gets up to 63 fully buffed

Lots of pure fighters like hanging out around high 20s to low 30s though, and all it takes is one bad roll before you're pretty much done in the fight.

[LinuxPup]

Apart from the pains of leveling up, what would stop you from making a charisma-based RDD? Once your in dragon form it doesn't matter anyway.

Rainswept:
The fear aura mainly intended to be a novelty, not a fundamental part of the Ancient Red Dragon form... don't think of it as something that matters. Even so, it still works on a bunch of crappy builds, so there's some amusement there...

[weasel423]

curious, what would the devs think about something like using intimidate, say 25 + 1/3 of intimidate score, dont think this is an rdd class skill though but that could balance it out. 21 ranks + say 10 from gear + 10 esf + 5cha, your looking at a dc40ish, which would require investment in feats, gear selection and skill points usage. thus negating the get-it-for-free factor.

or this: 43 (skill points) + 10 (esf) + 5 (cha) + 20 (gear + song) = 78
25 + 26 (78/3) = 51... seems a little much for max fear aura.

[Bargeld]

in order to get 30 rdd, all 20 epic lvls must be rdd. I am assuming intimidate is not an rdd skill, hence 21 max.

[Tru3Fals3]

Shamed doesn't have that problem, he gets up to 63 fully buffed

Lots of pure fighters like hanging out around high 20s to low 30s though, and all it takes is one bad roll before you're pretty much done in the fight.

hehe im gonna go ahead and assume you've never made a pure fighter shamed, they have a token that gives immunity to fear.

Apart from the pains of leveling up, what would stop you from making a charisma-based RDD? Once your in dragon form it doesn't matter anyway.

not really that simple, heavy book reqs or sacrifice other things that make it viable (epic dr, blinding speed), the pre epic rdd stats do matter in what feats they allow you to take, juggling fafnirs stats wasnt real easy and i used 3 books on him.

korrs dragon gets everything faf gets (except stun fist and two lower ab once his very temp buffs run out) and some divine dmg from divine might, i think the modifier is +12, not stunning and he used FIVE books, again thats a huge investment for +4 on the fear aura (using my example scale for it).

basically it means make more sacrifices for a decent fear aura, similar to the way shifters must make sacrifices for theirs.

like i said, just an idea though. change, keep it the same, nerf it more, whatever.

but your right linux it has become pretty amusing "OMG he actually failed that will save..."

[Tru3Fals3]

curious, what would the devs think about something like using intimidate, say 25 + 1/3 of intimidate score, dont think this is an rdd class skill though but that could balance it out. 21 ranks + say 10 from gear + 10 esf + 5cha, your looking at a dc40ish, which would require investment in feats, gear selection and skill points usage. thus negating the get-it-for-free factor.

or this: 43 (skill points) + 10 (esf) + 5 (cha) + 20 (gear + song) = 78
25 + 26 (78/3) = 51... seems a little much for max fear aura.

guess you didnt read the part where i mentioned its not an RDD class skill, thus only allowing half ranks.....


and either way, it was just an example, basically my idea was make it something that has to be earned through building, not just something that is given, since this seems to be the gripe most peeps have with it.

[Chernobyl_Glow]

for Linux: numbers. Nyelini says her dragon will have a DC 50 fear save. The change log claims DC 35 is set for RDD. The two don't have to be the same but they should be closer.

You're an idiot if...

<--- ignored.

what i'm saying about rdd levels is that they are not worth it. there are no logical 25rdd ___ /___ builds like there are with assassin or shifter or pm or cot or AA or whatever. you either go 10rdd or 30rdd nothing in between. no other class has as large gap between significant payoffs. the levels in between are essentially drivel. extra hps? 3 ac? (its only 4 if you get 30) really?

to my point, why didn't Blackburn have more than 10 RDD? Cuz they weren't worth it.
or why didn't Tyrant stop at 28 RDD? Cuz Dragon at 30 is the whole point.

the levels 11-29 gain you nothing other than extra AC. the hit points don't transfer to the dragon shape so why are they valuable? so to say there's no investment is a little misguided. the only reason you take levels 11-29 of rdd is for the dragon shape. without rdd dragon you wouldn't see anybuilds with more than ~11 rdd levels. that's all I'm saying.

but... that's all a big tangent anyway and i apologize. the real point is that when RDD was perceived as OP everyone wanted the two dragons to be the same. same ab, same ac, everything. now in this discussion, where the shifter aura is significantly higher none of that "make them the same" conversation applies. its a double standard.

i like the intimidate relation. i looked at it earlier but because it isn't an rdd class feat i assumed it didn't make sense. but you're math looks pretty logical. same with the charisma mentioned earlier too. good recommendations.

- Glow -

[weasel423]

in order to get 30 rdd, all 20 epic lvls must be rdd. I am assuming intimidate is not an rdd skill, hence 21 max.

My bad. Did not realize that was not a class skill

[Tru3Fals3]

in order to get 30 rdd, all 20 epic lvls must be rdd. I am assuming intimidate is not an rdd skill, hence 21 max.

My bad. Did not realize that was not a class skill

said it in my original post... proof nobody actually reads my posts, they just pick out the parts they wanna hear so by my twisted logic, i am always right, ya'll just ignore me

[Malik]

Take out the dragon token. *Nods* Opens up more RDD possibilities.

[mining monk]

Maybe make it Lore/3+20 (14+20 = 34, Adds CHA mod too, for DC 50 maximum (Only base ranks counted)) based? And only for pure sorc/RDD. Then you have just what the shifters have. But no WIS requirement.

Maybe I'm crazy but that WOULD even it up a bit?

Your advantages would be no stat dependancy, Easy feat selection, EDR easily attainable, same with blinding, relic bonus most of the time , won't be insta-killed by a roving PWnD while levelling...

Shifter advantages would be: Spellcasting is possible, 30 druid levels available, Epic Spells, Another shifter epic form is possible, DC 50 uses a required stat, gets jobs, Premonition can make up for EDR, can put an AoE down to fight in.

[Tru3Fals3]

Take out the dragon token. *Nods* Opens up more RDD possibilities.

*punches malik and steals his dagger*

[Rainswept]

Take out the dragon token. *Nods* Opens up more RDD possibilities.

*punches malik and steals his dagger*

Again? How many of those do u really need?