Divine Might

[Nyeleni]

Actually should be paladin (and combos with it) only. If you get CoT you just get additional divine dmg from divine wrath.
And only 18 charisma? All those ability points aren't in constitution or dexterity or strength ie.
Besides if you only have 18 you will be subject to dispells and loose the max dmg pretty quickly.

[VagaStorm]

just had a few questions about this:
all paladin's and cot's get double divine damage on divine might?
Or is it just pure paladins/cots?
and does that mean you only need 18 cha(+12 magical = 30) to get max damage?

Pre vipe I had a pally/fight/wm that got double damage, and yes, only 18 +12 buffs are needed for it....

[Korr]

Divine might is non-dispellable, 18 charisma or 13 charisma... it wont go away untill its done. The return on charisma is really good when youre a paladin, charisma gives saves, damage, damage duration, smite AB. The str/dex/con side of that is 1 dimensional.

[Nyeleni]

Not dexterity, and strength adds discipline bonus and damage. Constitution? Well opens some dr feats if you take enough. But of course, charisma is a great ability for paladins. As is wisdom for them as well for monks (monks paladins combos are numerous) and dexterity is a must too (dexxer builds implied). All in all you are rather short with ability points. Unless you take a subrace like Aasimar or Drow. But then you have the problem of lvling up an ECL 2 or 3.
Well the point being str/dex/con isn't one-dimensional.

[frogofpeace]

Actually should be paladin (and combos with it) only. If you get CoT you just get additional divine dmg from divine wrath.
And only 18 charisma? All those ability points aren't in constitution or dexterity or strength ie.
Besides if you only have 18 you will be subject to dispells and loose the max dmg pretty quickly.

Again, is this correct? I havent made a CoT since before the wipe, and don't have one now, but I could've sworn my CoT/clc/mnk got +20 damage from Divine Might.

[Nyeleni]

Well, if that is the case, it would be a bit illogical, as CoT doesn't get Turn Undead in the first place. But I haven't built the cleric version, thus I can't say if it is correct or not.

[frogofpeace]

Right - CoT needs to be multiclassed with a class that does give Turn (pali or clc) to get D Might, but if you have D Might as a feat and either pal or CoT levels, the damage is 2 * CHA modifier, to a max of +20. Divine damage from Wrath stacks on top of that. So Godfrey (RIP, 25 CoT/9 mnk/6 clc) was getting +33 or +35 with both Wrath and Might up at level 40 (damage from wrath is actually 2 or 4 more than published). I think; the old clockwork don't turn as smoothly as it once did.

I think this is just fine, from a faction balance perspective - doesn't even come close to some of the goodies available to other factions.

[Bishop99]

It may be just me, but 30+ divine damage seems over the top.

20+ would be more reasonable I think, but that of course is just my opinion. I think the double damage on divine might for pally's and cot's is unjustified.

If you are pure pally then double damage on divine might makes more sense, but divine wrath is already giving you divine damage so why do you need divine might to also double?

If we are talking about the COT bonus- I think that is pretty fair, they become godlike for a short duration. But for divine might, I am not really convinced it needs to be doubled for anyone as it is already a superb feat.

[Nyeleni]

Nah, it isn't over the top. But if we get mages, even only wizards or sorcerers, we gladly give in doubling the damage of divine might. No problem there. Or would you like to half the IGMS, or the duration of Bigsby? Those spells seem to be over the top too, if you ask an NC...

[Korr]

You can say that because they dont require saves . . . its skill checks and AC tests....

A 30 level CoT has gotten +15 to all their saves (without divine wrath) ontop of the epic saves thats 25 minimum, the 10 monk/ 30 CoT build i crapped out on some forum would also have +7 pre-epic saves. Thats 32 to all saves, before divine wrath, without Con/Dex/Wis taken in consideration. Averaging them all to a +8 (easy enough to obtain in 3 stats) youre talking 40 on all saves, feats can give like 5 or 6 more than that... and divine wrath is another 13, youre looking at near 60 on your saves on a character without Divine Grace. That is godlike . . . that is way powerfull. NC has no room to complain about what they have, they have hands down the most powerfull prestige class of the 6 factions. They have one drawback, spells that dont require saves . . . or spells that can still do a massive amount of damage even with a successful save (ie IGMS(which the damage is already below the bioware standard 2d6), harm (or any inflict), and ice storm etc). but lets not forget, I already pointed out how easy it is to get a potion of spell mantle, let alone if you have UMD and can use greater spell mantle!!!

So with a character that can easily get 60 to all the saves, you also get this amazing +13 AB, which no other spell can reproduce... it would take multiple spells to come close, and you can still get those spells as benefit (AvA, Bard Song, etc). Divine damage at the same amount (13) for every hit, plus if you did your NC job you already have more divine damage, and trueseeing (non-dispellable).

So now people say "well we cant do a str based CoT" . . . Oh wait 30 levels of cot gives the best DR in the game 30/+8... better than epic warding, better than earth gen. Once again CoT come out on top.

I wont even go into the mixed classes you can do with CoT, but yes you all have bards too . . . that means U M D, a CoT using scrolls could be sick seeing as how much gets auto-stripped by Mords these days.

Oh but "boohoo" My Divine Wrath only lasts 30+ cha mod (average probably 40) rounds!!! Im not that good ALL the time. Divine Might can be used outside of divine wrath, yes its a big power-down, but youre still looking at ~45 to all saves, and if youre paladin/cot then its more than that. You get put on par with everyone who cant 1-use +13 AB/damage/saves/huge DR.

I would put money down the CoT 1 shot power up means any CoT is more effective than any caster who is combat-oriented... once youve finished resting youre ready to go after a few rounds. If youre standing around twiddling your thumbs and get jumped, 1 round means youre near invincible.

Ill trade NC bard, barbarian, assassin, fighter (because CoT gets fighter feats anyway(except spec)), blackguard, shadowdancer, and about any other class for a Champion of Lolth prestige class (i.e. champion of torm but were evil).

[Fezz]

lol i find this debate truly facinating. You make characters in one faction, then go after another factions builds instead of doing what most people do and go build a toon in another faction.

Correct me if im wrong but jp liked the COT so much he is making one right now, no guild tags but big deal. Time to think outside the box. There is no way the DM's/devs are going to give everything you've asked for post wipe to SL because you only want to play DD tagged toons so u want a DD cot version a DD ranger etc etc.

The point people have been making here is that NC as a faction is massively restricted in both alignments and class selection, as compensation the COT got a rework by linux. BTW so did RDD and Dwarven Defender and many other classes and prc's including the massively powerfull Harperscout. Dont hear much complaining about those however. I wonder why LOL

[Nyeleni]

Because those haven't been a pain in the *** of SL folks lately. RDD are as good as CoT, and if DD would have decent ab they too.
Only because Ive been doing a lot of guerilla-warfare against you guys lately, doesn't mean you don't have enough firepower to counter a CoT. Ask Hammerella how to beat a CoT. It's easy enough. You don't have that one spell? You still have enough casters to bring Eve Silk down.
Yes, in Melee, esp. against death attack and any spell with a save, she will get out on top. But what else do CoT have? Nothing... And if you keep her occupied, meaning she cant rest in some time, she will go down. Hard and fast.
But go ahead, whine and compare tomatoes and oranges for all I care... I even would play a crippled CoT I guess... But don't expect the game to be challenging anymore if the other factions get crippled because you can't take it, SL...

PS: Oh and the UMD CoT, you trade in a lot if you take bard, I personally prefer Paladin and Monk. UMD doesn't give back enough. And I hear Spell Mantle again... Correct me if Im wrong, but that spell isn't scribable or pottable, right? So... yeah... we have the possibility of finding 15 pots in some weeks, and in one big battle those mantles are gone.
It is always frustrating to see the mob use the mantle pots themselves. It's usually the first they chug. So... I don't think it is really a threat for a caster.

PPS: Oh but one thing I can promise you, if you really get CoT nerfed, I will go after Shadow Caster hard, sry nothing personal, but that combo is impossible to beat... Never seen such a well built character, it excells in every direction, hipsing, melee and esp. casting as a mage. So... as I can't beat it with my CoT, I should get it nerfed too, right?

[frogofpeace]

Ill trade NC bard, barbarian, assassin, fighter (because CoT gets fighter feats anyway(except spec)), blackguard, shadowdancer, and about any other class for a Champion of Lolth prestige class (i.e. champion of torm but were evil).

Easy enough to make that trade - just make an NC character. The NC jobs are not bad either, from all the comments people make about the damage they get from the yellow aura.

I've done both strength based and dexterity based COT builds; they're great, awesome, wonderful in PvM, and they're swell in PvP as well, but go down fast in PvP to the right counter build, regardless of the outstanding saves, DR, massive damage and all. Fezz makes the point best - NC gets NOTHING else other factions can't duplicate, except CoT, and has a lot of limitations. Note you dont see nothing but CoT running around as well. I think it's just fine.

[Korr]

Ok so you get taken down like I said caster can take you down, yes caster have a huge advantage over alot of people, as I said they did. If I didnt... thwn caster HAVE A HUGE ADVANTAGE... they HARNESS magic the supreme guidance of this world, nad most 3.0 and 3.5 worlds. When they made D&D 4.0 they said "It shouldnt be fun for J U S T casters throughout all the levels". And they (as far as ive read/heard) did a great job.

Untill then... any spell requiring a save (implosion, a fav of everyone) is negated by a CoT . . . and then they COMPLAIN on other threads that its TOO POWERFULL, with their +15-20 saves, because its not negatable by saving throws.

RDD gets a lil str, you need to build around that... CoT gets E V E R Y T H I N G, its a huge difference. I can take it I can make 15 counterbuilds to a CoT, but thats 1 faction. EVERYTHING is supposed to be balanced not just EVERYTHING - CoT.

[Nyeleni]

Incredible, you don't know anything about RDD, they don't get just a bit of strength. But nevermind. I think you are just angry at CoT. But obviously you aren't objective enough to be able to judge the balance of the game...
But maybe all the ones trying to explain you why CoT is as good and needs to be, are just wrong? Or not...
Even so, I think we are spinning the ball right now, and not getting anywhere. The Devs will decide wheter or not a change is needed. I personally think you are just wanting everything for SL, and that is simply not possible.
That is why you are amassing the relics, wanting Ranger for the underdark, and Blackguard should get double divine damage too. Instead of being just glad you have mages flinging spells everywhere and other much more options, you focus on things you dont have...