Shifters...shapes/powers

[Lokey]

See edits above. I did tinker with the ac values a smidge. If you're really lacking in ac, you'll have to look at the dex forms. Also larger dodge bonus is your friend, that ac is doubled. Also, find some goblins to practice your gaze/breath attacks on, positioning is weird (i.e. targeting a creature or targeting the ground beside a creature makes a big difference in where the engine puts you.)

Upped the damage dice up slightly on wyrmling and dragons. Wyrmling breath maxes at about 12 dice.

It's going to be really annoying to get this all into a nice table

[cluckster]

I started testing a druid/shifter last weekend that was wisdom based. I talked with Lokey a little bit about some of his ideas and one of them was to have one ability stat come from the shifter shape and the other two stats come from the base form (out of Str, Dex, and Con). Through the testing it looks like a great idea for any build that is strength, dexterity, or constitution based. Wisdom based toons in my opinion will be harder to level. I think most of the special abilities should be dependent in wisdom to improve any wisdom-based druid/shifters.

Wild Shape 1 (lvls tested 5-14)
The Wyrmlings did great for lower levels starting at 5th lvl to 12th lvl. There breath weapon could have used more damage but I believe Lokey had fixed this since.

Wild Shape 2 (lvls tested 9-16)
The Gargoyle is Con based so AC was the same as base race and damage and AB was low for my build at lower lvls. The addition of stoneskin will help with the AC problem for wis based toons. Higher lvls the HPs are great but still run into the low damage problem.

The Minotaur is Str based. AC was the same as base race and damage was good at lower lvls. I didn’t really play around with this shape a lot at higher lvls so I’ll update laters.

The Harpy is Dex based. AC was a little higher but low AB. Damage was good for lower lvls. The Captivity Song was a great modification. . I didn’t really play around with this shape a lot at higher lvls so I’ll update laters.

Wild Shape 3 (lvls tested 11-16)
Basilisk was Con based with great HPs. AC was the same as base and low AB and damage. Gaze attack would help for wis based toons. . I didn’t really play around with this shape a lot at higher lvls so I’ll update laters.

Drider was Dex based. AC was a little higher but low AB. This shape has darkness but don’t last long… . I didn’t really play around with this shape a lot at higher lvls so I’ll update laters.

Manticore was Str based. AC was the same as base. AB and damage was good but the spike ability was poor on damage. . I didn’t really play around with this shape a lot at higher lvls so I’ll update laters.

Humanoid Shape (lvls tested 13-20)
Drow Warrior was Dex based. Higher AC, low AB, ok damage without a good weapon besides Ave weapons. . I didn’t really play around with this shape a lot at higher lvls so I’ll update laters.

Lizardfolk Whipmaster is Con based. AC is about the same as base. AB and dame are low. . I didn’t really play around with this shape a lot at higher lvls so I’ll update laters.

Kobolt Commando is Str based. AC is low and AB is not the greatest. Damage was good tho.

Wild Shape 4 (lvls tested 15-20)
Dire Tiger is Str based. AC is the same as base AB and damage was good. . I didn’t really play around with this shape a lot at higher lvls so I’ll update laters.

Medusa is Con based. AC is the same as base. AB is low same with damage. Gate attack will help wis based toons tho.

Mind Flayer was Dex based. Good AC, low AB, and ok damage. Mind Blast varied on the amount of round it stunned enemies but I think Lokey may have change this ability. . I didn’t really play around with this shape a lot at higher lvls so I’ll update laters.

Undead Shape (lvls tested 24-40) lvl 25 and 30 gear
The Rises Lord 45-50 AC and 43 max AB. Damage could also use some work.

Vampire also had 45-50 AC with 47 max AB. Great damage on this shape.

Specter had good AC at 57 but low AB at 40 and really low damage.

Overall the Undead Shapes still need work. The Rises Lord could solo zons but would have a hard time in any of the planes, The Specter has a hard time in FD, and Vampire could solo the planes lower than dwarves with caution.

Outsider Shapes
I didn’t really test any of these shapes. The AB, AC, and damage are really low and couldn’t really survive anyplace.

Construct Shapes
I tested these shapes in zons. They did great at but their AC is low, same with AB. The only thing that really saves this shape at zons is DR

Dragon Shape
I tried testing this shape in Dwarves. The damage is good but would be nice to have a little more elemental damage added, on average of 2 to 5 damage form element. AC was 57 and AB was around 54. This shape still could use some adjustment.

The info above is from a week and a half ago and I know Lokey and the rest of the staff have put a lot of time in on this since to improve it. With that in mind I’ll keep checking the toon I’m testing with and update as often as I can.

[Lokey]

Dragons are still the same except breath which is like 22 dice at level 40 (evasionable). I forget the dc, it scales to something like high 30s at 40 regardless of class (other stuff uses). Might have been minor tweaks and I do need to check their skill bonuses.

I broke down and made a primary wisdom shifter to get dragon shape. I'll go 30 shifter to get the fear aura which is the only benefit above shifter 20 iirc, and I think I'd rather go druid 27/shifter 13...so we'll need to think of some hideously overpowered shifter level based stuff for the epic shape feats.

I did wildelf with stats 13/10/12/19/12/6. Expect to make use of the dex shapes and the best dodge bonus boots I can dig up (started at level 10 since 2 points in animal empathy can get a commoner to 5 and wyrmling replaces all stats).

Soloing ogres is low risk. Have to do some wandering around...drider in one level, web bolt and darkness might be nifty. At the very least I can tank or hit stuff and pack mule or spread lots of damage reduction around. Give me some wildshape 3, I want to make some statues already.

[disastro]

i just started my first druid ever (mainly for crafting). ill report how it goes, but so far my build is wild elf caster/total wisdom so i can get dragonshape by 30 without books. other stats are in the 10-12 range. to avoid one-trick-ponyness i'll have zen archery and good caster feats.

i'll give you the n00b perspective!

[Lokey]

Upping Manticore spike attack. Touch attack, 2d8 + d8/2 shifter levels piercing damage, single target, double on crit.

Edit: Looks good. Basilisk gaze does ok on snakes, ogres. Poor ac/ab in that form for my eventually get to 30 wis character. Obviously I'm not a superstar but at levels around 10-12 I can do stuff, and not die instantly. Moving on up to human shape, and dreading the high teens.

Edit2: level 13. Soloing gnolls and Ordean caves with human (except lizard). Maybe a dexxy can have fun with disarm whip if you don't have the feat. Getting an ac 33, 28/23 ab kobold is pretty easy (my base physicals are blah). I'll go play with some crypts tomorrow...I think the real problem is going to be late teens.

[disastro]

the straight druid shapes are merely ok into level 16. i get better mileage out of my scimitar however due to the crit range (even with sucky physical stats), and as a total wisdom build i get much better bang out of spells and zen, especially in a party. so i find myself never wanting to shift except for travelling around as a panther. given that dragon shape requires 30 wis theres not much room to move on the other stats.

will try elemental shapes next.

[Lokey]

Yeah, animal shapes aren't meant for anything besides low level. Druid gets a great spell list.

Drow/Drider darkness lasts a little more than a turn. So at least two turns must pass before you can cast it again (roughly two minutes). (It's darkness at will...you need to spend just a bit of time in the light )

Ithillid stuff wasn't stacking. So now:

To enemies within 12' in cone shape that aren't undead, construct or elemental, -4 to will save, lasts 5 rounds. Make a will save at dc 10 + shifter level, failing that means 50% vulnerability to physical damage for 5 rounds.

Hopefully this wraps things up for pre-epic and we can delve into epic.

I'm thinking undead forms aren't going to be that strong. Something good for 20s, possibly more cheesable than normal shapes, but won't have the all around power of planar and construct...whatever those turn out to be.

[Daltian]

Why would anyone take undead form feat if its only good at lvl 20s?

[Amoenotep]

because its available at lvl 20 with no pre reqs...the other shapes you have to invest in so they should naturally get stronger as you go. the easiest to get shouldn't be the best then get more and more soft as you lvl them out.

[Shhhhhhh]

While that does make sense, its a bit of a shame too.
The fun thing of being a shifter is that you have a lot of different shapes and forms to use.
You can shift to whatever is needed for the circumstances.
So i hope that while undead might be weaker overal, it still has some kinda special things that sets it appart from the other shapes and gives you a reason to use them even at 40.
Since most the normal shapes rely on having dex or str up high, the wisdom based pure shifter has mostly just the epic feats to chose from.

[disastro]

Why would anyone take undead form feat if its only good at lvl 20s?

i guess that puts it in line with feats like dragon knight... great up until your low 30s, rapidly declining utility past that in pvm.

i see the point about druid animal shapes being for low level, however in my admittedly small experience they werent useful even then. elemental shapes seem much better but i have not finished checking them out yet. for now i use them when i'm done with spells and want to remain moderately useful (a tactic my pure wiz does with shapechange or tensors spells).

i am sure i'm missing something, but so far the druid spell list looks strictly inferior to the cleric list. really the only differentiating spells are stonehold,premonition (and now to some extent mass camo)... everything else a cleric can do either natively or via domains, on top of the uber party and self buffs. call lightning is pretty good too however.

a suggestion might be to tweak blood frenzy spell into a better self buff, something more along the lines of divine favor.

[Lokey]

Ok, Malik and I talked and talked and talked...

Undead shapes all get:
Immune to crit, poison, disease, level drain, death.
18 discipline.
20 turn resistance. (Was 15)
50% immune to cold, electric. (Was resist 10 each)
25% immune to slash/pierce.
50% vuln to bludgeon and fire.
Some combat feats.

Risen Lord: Str 35, Dex 21, Con 28. ac boost of 5.
Harm self, raise dead (raised has -6 to str and dex for 5 turns).

Vampire: Str 35, Dex 28, Con 21. ac boost of 4.
Dominate gaze will or stun, dc = your level. Harm self.

Spectre: Str 21, Dex 35, Con 28. ac boost of like 2.
Touch: similar to vamp touch, does d4 of half your level, will save for half. Temp hitpoints to caster, those last 10 minutes. Invis per spell. Harm self.

We'll give that a try.

[Fezz]

Just a quick question loki, did u leave immune to sneak attacks of fthe list - or you can sneak them now ?

[Lokey]

Epic precision isn't in NWN1. Immune to crit means no vorp, sneak, crit, some stun abilities.

Malik and I did ok against Ice giants at level 22 in level 16 basic gear, searing light is way overpowered I went to Skara later, did ok there (not so hot on damage as weapon was still stuff I bought in Avendell).

They'll scale as the others, and planar will have better base stats...we'll see. Probably tromp around some in undead then go back to level 24 and start working on planar. Crit immune, etc go a long way though. Maybe pull the slash/pierce immunities, we'll see how it goes. Planar will probably be non-druid weaps, construct will be simple + druid weaps (spear and don't know yet).

[cluckster]

Vampire: Str 35, Dex 28, Con 21. ac boost of 4.
Dominate gaze will or stun, dc = your level. Harm self.

The Dominate Gaze DC is just based on lvl or is wis added for wis builds?