Ranger and Summon creature IV

[Korr]

Yeah we got side-tracked somewhere with the postings here... but Blystos Re and I are of the same mind-set. Make your ranger do what it needs to do, not everything it can do. Make it human (or human subrace) that way you get an extra feat and can drop 2 int points at the beginning. Not every skill needs maxed either.


I think it would be cool to give unique summons to the ranger, it would be a bit of a waste of feats to take spell focuses (and u cant even take epic) to buff up tha ranger summons a bit. One of the problems to look at is that Rangers get 4th level spells at level 4. A cleric/sorc/wiz has to wait 3 more levels to be able to get their 9th level summons... and even longer to get an epic summon.

[Blystos Re]

But do you really thing that ranger doesn't need better summon?

No, because if I really tuned my ranger to be a stalking, guerila-warfare, jump-out-of-nowhere-and-whoop-your-*** character that I want it to be, having the companion is totally not worth my time (nor is investing in Animal Empathy).

"Hey, what's that bear named "Booboo" doing just sitting there by that choke point in the pass?"
"Huh, I dunno. Looks kind of out of place here in the Frozen Reach...Oh well, let's go!"

Just like any other class, you take it's strengths and build on them.

Ranger is supposed to have companion. It's in main definition of class.

And if I remember correctly, Sorcs and Wizards are supposed to have familiars, but they don't here.

For the record, I would be the type to name my Dire Wolf companion "Dire Wolf"...just for the reaction I'd get.

[Daltian]

Yeah we got side-tracked somewhere with the postings here... but Blystos Re and I are of the same mind-set. Make your ranger do what it needs to do, not everything it can do. Make it human (or human subrace) that way you get an extra feat and can drop 2 int points at the beginning. Not every skill needs maxed either.


I think it would be cool to give unique summons to the ranger, it would be a bit of a waste of feats to take spell focuses (and u cant even take epic) to buff up tha ranger summons a bit. One of the problems to look at is that Rangers get 4th level spells at level 4. A cleric/sorc/wiz has to wait 3 more levels to be able to get their 9th level summons... and even longer to get an epic summon.

First of all, rangers get lvl 4 spells at lvl 14 not 4, but that's what you probably meant to say, just a typo I believe. Second, "Summon Creature IV" can be made dependent on ranger lvl and follow his progression, like mummy dust, or Summon undead and make it become really great one at 40 levels of ranger, like Blackguard summon gets on level 30 of blackguard. It can be done.

[Daltian]

And if I remember correctly, Sorcs and Wizards are supposed to have familiars, but they don't here.

Yes, but they get improved dragon knight compared to vanilla nwn. And with proper build with all the buffs he gets it becomes a fearsome foe. That can be knockdowned easy now, but that will be fixed I believe.

[Korr]

Hah yeah... 14 not 4 ';O

[Blystos Re]

Yes, but they get improved dragon knight compared to vanilla nwn. And with proper build with all the buffs he gets it becomes a fearsome foe. That can be knockdowned easy now, but that will be fixed I believe.

Taking it to that level you're comparing apples to oranges now...or maybe apples to watermellons.
Rangers only have spells up to level 4, they aren't a caster at the core of their class.

[Daltian]

Rangers only have spells up to level 4, they aren't a caster at the core of their class.

Indeed, but they have companion at the core of their class!!

[Daltian]

Taking away companion from rangers and druids is like taking away divine spell casting from cleric or take away damage reduction from dwarven defender.

But it had to be done due to the fact companions opened up for abuse and exploits. I understand that and have no problem with it. Beefing up "Summon Creature IV" wouldn't be making ranger a caster, just giving ranger his companion in the way it doesn't allow exploits.

[Blystos Re]

Taking away companion from rangers and druids is like taking away divine spell casting from cleric or take away damage reduction from dwarven defender.

Like Saddam having WMD's, this statement is simply untrue.
I can build, and have built, rangers that do not have a companion or rely on a summon and used them quite effectively. How about you build a cleric that doesn't cast spells and let me know how that works for you.

If the devs decide to up the ranger-specific summons a bit I won't complain, but the arguement for it is rather weak. IMHO, they don't need it.

I'm done here.

[Daltian]

Taking away companion from rangers and druids is like taking away divine spell casting from cleric or take away damage reduction from dwarven defender.

Like Saddam having WMD's, this statement is simply untrue.
I can build, and have built, rangers that do not have a companion or rely on a summon and used them quite effectively. How about you build a cleric that doesn't cast spells and let me know how that works for you.

If the devs decide to up the ranger-specific summons a bit I won't complain, but the arguement for it is rather weak. IMHO, they don't need it.

I'm done here.

It's class defying, not essential. You could build an effective paladin without divine grace, divine might and divine shield. And it could be quite effective, but that doesn't mean everyone should do it! There are also plenty of palemasters that cant cast spells. Still wouldn't make it right to take spellcasting ability away from them.

Your argument states that you did something and everything else is wrong. Ranger is not only for you to play!

[Reaver.....[RR]]

Taking away companion from rangers and druids is like taking away divine spell casting from cleric or take away damage reduction from dwarven defender.

You could build an effective paladin without divine grace, divine might and divine shield.

Your argument states that you did something and everything else is wrong. Ranger is not only for you to play!

1. Are you suggesting that the Animal Companion is anywhere near as vital as any of these abilities that you have stated thus far? Frankly, I find that a load of garbage. The animal companion is a minor part of the Ranger class, easily made up for and further by the benefits a ranger gets without having to go pure. Suggesting that the animal companion is on the level of say, divine spell casting or dr is ludicrous, to put it as nicely as possible. It would be more like taking Darkvision away from Half-Orcs, a minor edit to the ideal, nothing more.

2. In response to the second part of what I quote, you have thus far ignored several peoples points on why this is not an essential edit and ploughed on regardless, seemingly shocked that you aren't 100% agreed with here. Your arguement states that you want something and everyone else is wrong. Ranger is not only for you to play!

[Daltian]

It would be more like taking Darkvision away from Half-Orcs, a minor edit to the ideal, nothing more.

When you ask people to describe ranger. They would most probably say. Its archer/dualwielder with the animal companion by his side.

When you ask people to describe Half-Orc I doubt they would say. Its a big green dude with darkvision.

[Fezz]

I think here that the argument is that if you look at ALL the classes with summons or animal companion, the ranger gets the raw deal - you can say what you want about it not being vital to making it work.

The fact is it was stated 5 years ago that companions and familiars would come back, when they could find away to stop them being exploitable. This has not happened and probably never will. Thats cool.

Break it down and youll see that a wizard or sorcerer dosent need the familiar, it gets replaced on this server by beefed up summon and the spell focus conjuration or necro for mummy feats.

Moving on to druid, he to dosent need the animal companion, a druid on here can take the conjuration feats, and then gets an even bigger boost for being a druid - just like a cleric with animal domain does.

Lastly we have the ranger that can waste the 2 or 3 if you go epic conj feats - and what do you get - a beefed up monster summon iv that literaly sucks rear ends.

See where we are comming from ?

To whoever said they were soloing amazons at 21 or whatever with there range - im happy for you did you get a DM come down and tell you you shouldnt be there at your lvl and it was time for ranger to get a nerf ?? i guess not - that must be for shifters only - guess killing ragnar and cherry at 24 is too much :PP

[Daltian]

Might I remind you that those ranger bonuses aren't pure class bonuses.



Also, Greater Magic Fang works on animals dominated with Animal Empathy. Ancient Dire Bears are your friend.

I've made a pure ranger and it was soloing amazons at 23. Don't tell me they need more juice.

I tried animal empathy today. Its quite strange to see that something you brought in discussion as argument is totally untrue.

Ancient Dire Bears can't be dominated with animal empathy.

Greater Magic Fang doesn't work on dominated animals!

[Twiggy]

i hear a lot of "rangers are soo good!" but yet i look at this post and it seems like people ignore this

http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns/viewto ... t=set+trap

also people say pure class bonuses are the devil. yet pure class bonuses where implemented. contradiction there. then people say some classes are meant to be dip classes. yet pure fighters where given bonuses.....fighters seem a pretty big dip class.


seems people need to make up there minds. I for one would like to see better pure classes that do what they do. just MHO


casting classes don't need a boost except for druids. rangers need a boost to survivability and spotting/setting traps/hiding/move silently/search. rogues need something so they aren't targeted by AI and boost to pick locks/disable traps/hide/move silently/umd/search/listening/pickpocket(honestly should be removed being used on PC's)

locks dc's could be increased, disabling traps dc's could be increased, pick pocketable special items on bosses implemented to make skill more useful outa pvp, spotting traps dc lowered for rogues to accomodate rogues/pure rogues usefullness. (I know diping in rogue is very useful, but when a wizard can unlock an item it removes rogues usefullness)

spotting could be made easier for rangers, setting traps dc could be lowered for rangers, and dual wielding weapons could add ac if ur a ranger.

made a suggestion for druids already.