Blackguards

[Bargeld]

& crit immunity and self harms! I realized that most high level bgs is would need to have concentration in order to use their harms to heal the pet. They draw AOOs and usually the spell fizzles (of which they have 2 wimpy versions, not even harms, but inflicts).

I'm probably asking for too much with all this combined, but even if 1 of 3 got implemented, it would help the bg. Weapon scaling based on bg lvl is good also, although coding time could prohibit this.

[Twiggy]

1) HiPS is so broken you can kill anything without keen senses with 1/2 their spot in hide, and anything with keen senses while having 10 less hide than their spot.
2) SDs need nothing but standard gear (mundane) to kill and eat 70% of builds.
3) What you want and what IS is not the same. Rangers are NOT amazing spotters.
4) I apologise for using the wrong image for a sorceror. Is this better?

A few unintelligible words and fleeting gestures carry more power
than a battleaxe, when they are the words and gestures of a wizard.
These simple acts make magic seem easy, but they only hint at the
time the wizard must spend poring over her spellbook preparing
each spell for casting, and the years before that spent in apprenticeship
to learn the arts of magic.
Wizards depend on intensive study to create their magic. They
examine musty old tomes, debate magical theory with their peers,
and practice minor magics whenever they can. For a wizard, magic is
not a talent but a difficult, rewarding art.
Adventures: Wizards conduct their adventures with caution and
forethought. When prepared, they can use their spells to devastating
effect. When caught by surprise, they are vulnerable. They seek
knowledge, power, and the resources to conduct their studies. They
may also have any of the noble or ignoble motivations that other
adventurers have.
Characteristics: The wizard’s strength is her spells. Everything
else is secondary. She learns new spells as she experiments and
grows in experience, and she can also learn them from other wizards.
In addition to learning new spells, a wizard can, over time,
learn to manipulate her spells so they go farther, work better, or are
improved in some other way.
Some wizards prefer to specialize in a certain type of magic.
Specialization makes a wizard more powerful in her chosen field,
but it denies her access to some of the spells that lie outside that
field. (See School Specialization, page 57.)
Like a sorcerer, a wizard can call a familiar—a small, magical
animal companion that serves her. For some wizards, their familiars
are their only true friends.
Alignment: Overall, wizards show a slight tendency toward law
over chaos because the study of magic rewards those who are
disciplined. Illusionists and transmuters, however, are masters of
deception and change, respectively. They favor chaos over law.
Religion: Wizards commonly revere Boccob (god of magic).
Some, especially necromancers or simply more misanthropic wizards,
prefer Wee Jas (goddess of death and magic). Evil necromancers
are known to worship Nerull (god of death). Wizards in general
are more devoted to their studies than to their spiritual sides.
Background: Wizards recognize each other as comrades or rivals.
Even wizards from very different cultures or magical traditions have
much in common because they all conform to the same laws of
magic. Unlike fighters or rogues, wizards see themselves as
members of a distinct, if diverse, group. In civilized lands where
wizards study in academies, schools, or guilds, wizards also identify
themselves and others according to membership in these formal
organizations. But while a guild magician may look down her nose
at a rustic wizard who learned his arts from a doddering hermit, she
nevertheless can’t deny the rustic’s identity as a wizard

Sorcerers create magic the
way a poet creates poems, with
inborn talent honed by
practice. They have no books, no
mentors, no theories—just raw
power that they direct at will.
Some sorcerers claim that the blood
of dragons courses through their veins.
That claim may even be true in some
cases—it is common knowledge that certain
powerful dragons can take humanoid form and
even have humanoid lovers, and it’s difficult
to prove that a given sorcerer does not have
a dragon ancestor. It’s true that sorcerers
often have striking good looks, usually
with a touch of the exotic that hints
at an unusual heritage. Others
hold that the claim is either an
unsubstantiated boast on the
part of certain sorcerers or
envious gossip on the
part of those who lack
the sorcerer’s gift.
Adventures: The
typical sorcerer adventures in order to
improve his abilities. Only by testing
his limits can he expand them. A
sorcerer’s power is inborn—part of
his soul. Developing this power is a quest
in itself for many sorcerers, regardless of how
they wish to use their power.
Some good sorcerers are driven by the
need to prove themselves. Marked as
different by their power, they seek to win
a place in society and to prove themselves to others. Evil sorcerers,
however, also feel themselves set apart from others—apart and
above. They adventure to gain power over those they look down
upon.Since sorcerers gain their powers without undergoing the years of
rigorous study that wizards go through, they don’t have the
background of arcane knowledge than most wizards have. However,
they do have more time to learn fighting skills, and they are
proficient with simple weapons.
Alignment: For a sorcerer, magic is an intuitive art, not a science.
Sorcery favors the free, chaotic, creative spirit over the disciplined
mind, so sorcerers tend slightly toward chaos over law.
Religion: Some sorcerers favor Boccob (god of magic), while
others revere Wee Jas (goddess of death and magic). However, many
sorcerers follow some other deity, or none at all. (Wizards typically
learn to follow Boccob or Wee Jas from their mentors, but most
sorcerers are self-taught, with no master to induct them into a
religion).
Background: Sorcerers develop rudimentary powers at puberty.
Their first spells are incomplete, spontaneous, uncontrolled, and
sometimes dangerous. A household with a budding sorcerer in it
may be troubled by strange sounds or lights, which can create the
impression that the place is haunted. Eventually, the young sorcerer
understands the power that he has been wielding unintentionally.
From that point on, he can begin practicing and improving his
powers.
Sometimes a sorcerer is fortunate enough to come under the care
of an older, more experienced sorcerer, someone who can help him
understand and use his new powers. More often, however, sorcerers
are on their own, feared by erstwhile friends and misunderstood by
family.
Sorcerers have no sense of identity as a group. Unlike wizards,
they gain little by sharing their knowledge and have no strong
incentive to work together.

Finally, you ignored the Dr. Mcninja bit.

http://drmcninja.com/ There is my arguement.


LOL, that is kinda funny. and odd at the same time. also highly unlikely hence why it's in a comic book.

yes that is better for the sorcerer however you are just saying what i was.

Berg i like the way Neversummer is too. are you saying because you want to change the bg summons that you don't like Neversummer? I don't care if i am returning, first time here, or i just visited today. I'll give my opinion and ideas. To deny anyone the opportunity to do so, is tantamount to death and decay.

Neversummer has DL elements in it. i don't get your point.

Also mining want i want and what is, is obviously different. Could say the same thing about you and assassins, or hey how about BG's?


Back to the BG's. Summon's weapon would be a good start. how about some DR and immunity? and instead of undead make it an outsider. (i take it is is undead since cahaal said a pally could heal kill it) also maybe some conceal? as well as adding some skill points and feats, while changing the AI so it doesn't enter detect mode unnecessarily

[cRaZy8or5e]

Back to the BG's. Summon's weapon would be a good start. how about some DR and immunity? and instead of undead make it an outsider. (i take it is is undead since cahaal said a pally could heal kill it) also maybe some conceal? as well as adding some skill points and feats, while changing the AI so it doesn't enter detect mode unnecessarily

I think the weapon is solid as is. Weapon feats would be good I think.

DR and immunity? It was already crit immune, so probably not a good idea to give it DR and immunities.

However, I like the idea of changing it to outsider purely so it's not vulnerable to positive damage(heals) anymore. I think that's one of the biggest problems for the summon. Change it to outsider but keep it crit immune. I think that would solve a lot of problems.

I don't agree about adding concealment, an ii wand can solve that for you.

If you add skills, give it listen or spot or something like that, at least it would give the illusion of having a chance of spotting a hidden attacker, rather than just standing their like an r-tard.

[Daltian]

Seriously, this is old... I'd really like to see more about BG summon improvements, since they have a +6 weapon that does 1d8 base, 2d8 fire, 1d6 slashing, and 1d6 piercing.

Are you sure it's actually +6? I was running around with my toon with 20/+6 DR and it looked like damage was being soaked. I am not completely sure right now since I don't have screen shot.

[Bargeld]

+17 str no other buffs
1-8 +23 damage

and now that I think about it, if it has epic weapon spec, then it gets +6 from that... I now realize that there is no enhancement on the weapon, not even +1.

[Daral0085]

Well, creature weapon enhancement doesn't show up on the stat page (we shifters know this from our dragon builds). It's generally best to have it kill a goblin and check the combat log to see if its AB was enhanced or not.

...Although in this case I'm pretty sure someone said this summon wasn't using a creature weapon (which, for instance, 30 PM summon does).

[Cahaal]

The combat log matches the SS. It is not enhanced and you can see it by having a cleric cast GMW on it.

[mining]

Is that AB at the cap?

[Amoenotep]

unarmed = creature weapon is what daral is refering too. if your creature uses a weapon of any kind it can't be using creature weapon too

[Chernobyl_Glow]

You were right the first time. Two levels = 2 str, 1 stacking ac, and 3 fort/will, great for twinking some bard/x builds that have a class slot to spare--bard plus wm 5 or 7 stock for example. 4 or 5 is ok too, but yeah, takes a while til you get to the immunes.

Well, a RDD/WM would be my very next build if we could. Can't do 2 RDD or do Bard30/RDD5/WM5. Those are LA restricted builds.

And 5 levels min means that you get 4/1/4 saves. Nice but anything compared to the BG saves bump that you could have. Bard30/RDD10 works pretty nice. But Bard25/RDD10/ _ _ _5 is a bit harder to justify. Which means that you cannot supplement your 30 bard with 2 classes and not make a sacrifice of your bard buffs. Like a Bard30/Ftr5/BG5 would offer. If I'm multiclassing my bard I go BG before RDD and too bad you can't do both.

Wall I agree with what you said about minings post I have to say I agree with him about RDD first for 5 levels you can get 4 str and a nice skill set to get RDD you only need 1 level of bard or sorc (if you take it pre epic) and 8 lore which limits you to 34/1/5 if we are talking just diping into it.

Yes, you could build a 34/1/5. RDD = the "best dip class"? Yes if the benefits of a 10 rdd were awarded at 5 levels (like Monk and Pally and SD etc.) RDD has a decent payoff at 10. 5 is worthless. To dip for 5 only there are better options. Just take 5 Bard if its for the skillz (with exception of Spot). 3/4 BAB. If RDD is intended to boost a melee build then 3/4 BAB (of RDD & Bard) is counter productive. If you take 1bard and 4rdd preepic (for the saves) then you get +4str (2ab) and -2 BAB compared to 5 Fighter levels. You net 2 AC and Spot for your six levels.

...

To tie in my points for relevance: some would say that RDD is 'the best dip class'. I would say that BG may be better at 5 levels but there is very little reason to take more than 5. And if you're building to utilize that worthless summons, then there is little or no point at all. If you are building to be a smiter of good (not to include many Cots) then you could be pretty good but clearly a one trick pony and still there would be no reason to take 30 levels. If you are building a durable, survivable something,... 5 BG. The rest of it has -0- payoff.

And can we help it that we've derailed Cahaal? This thread was started by making about 4 different points in two paragraphs. If each of those spawned 2 sub topics then we could easily be talking about 12 different losely related topics in this thread. Is this thread about overpowered COT's or neutral aligned COT's or the pointlessness >5 BG levels or about the useless BG summons? All of the points are true but probably should have been 4 separate threads. Each point has spawned much talk. Just keep bringing it back on point.

- Glow -

[burrahobbit]

Is there any way that players can boost their summons other than buffs? Is there a way to give your summon feats at the expense of huge amounts of xp? (A select group of feats, wpn prof/focus/improved crit, shield prof, and the like, nothing huge, just the basics) Is there a way you could "give" your summon gear, mundane for the most part, but the ability to carry the G1 sword if you had one extra etc, again, at the cost of huge amounts of XP? I think a BG summon running around with the celestia long sword wearing the proper shield and armor would be hilarious. It would also open it up for all sorts of fun customizations. Not sure how it would work, pay the DM's, recieve a token that summons your newly equiped friend with all the added goodies..

Probably isnt possible, but it would be fun...

[dethonlegs]

Is there a way you could "give" your summon gear

I've played on servers where this was possible, but they used HAK files so that may not be possible here.

[MetalDragon]

Give them additional STR or DEX (depending on which on is higher), negative damage and make it a base class.