Shifters Overpowered? Just Right? Glaring Weaknesses?

[Daral0085]

Good news is that if you have a shifter/good toon, you can probably solo 80% of levelling areas. - Mining Monk
IMO, a build is overpowered when it defeats far greater numbers. - Mining Monk

Way to blur the line between an obvious PvM statement and an obvious PvP statement. Well done.

*EDIT* and before you retort asking is there a difference: yes, there's a big f'in difference.

QFT

[rocketkai]

Good news is that if you have a shifter/good toon, you can probably solo 80% of levelling areas. - Mining Monk
IMO, a build is overpowered when it defeats far greater numbers. - Mining Monk

So I guess you believe that any shifter is equivalent of a "good" toon (and the good portion is by your definition). And you still think that they are not overpowered. The statements together are just contrary.

My hipser efficiently soloed Sunken Isle at lvl 13, Efreets at lvl 16, Amazon/Skara at lvl20, Molemen at lvl25, and dorfs goblins at lvl 30... what would ya say then?

[Xyxyili]

Good news is that if you have a shifter/good toon, you can probably solo 80% of levelling areas. - Mining Monk
IMO, a build is overpowered when it defeats far greater numbers. - Mining Monk

So I guess you believe that any shifter is equivalent of a "good" toon (and the good portion is by your definition). And you still think that they are not overpowered. The statements together are just contrary.

My hipser efficiently soloed Sunken Isle at lvl 13, Efreets at lvl 16, Amazon/Skara at lvl20, Molemen at lvl25, and dorfs goblins at lvl 30... what would ya say then?

Why would you move from higher CR mobs (Molemen) to lower CR mobs (dorfs goblins) after 5 levels.

Anyway, adjusting encounters for hipsers is an easy fix, just add more listen/spot to the mobs. Adjusting it for shifters is not easy, since they have far more Saves, AC and resists then almost all other classes at any level you compare them to.

You can't just add more Anti-Shifter to the mobs to balance it. They don't have a special feature, they are good at everything. Unlimited abilities like drider form no save root and Rakshasha ice storm enunciate it further. Balancing for shifters makes areas impossible for everyone else.

[Daral0085]

Molemen are CR 32. Goblins have CRs between 32 and 35. Dwarves have CRs between 29 I think, and 34. So the elite dwarf warriors and Goblin shamen are higher CR than molemen.

[mining]

Good news is that if you have a shifter/good toon, you can probably solo 80% of levelling areas. - Mining Monk
IMO, a build is overpowered when it defeats far greater numbers. - Mining Monk

So I guess you believe that any shifter is equivalent of a "good" toon (and the good portion is by your definition). And you still think that they are not overpowered. The statements together are just contrary.

My hipser efficiently soloed Sunken Isle at lvl 13, Efreets at lvl 16, Amazon/Skara at lvl20, Molemen at lvl25, and dorfs goblins at lvl 30... what would ya say then?

Why would you move from higher CR mobs (Molemen) to lower CR mobs (dorfs goblins) after 5 levels.

Anyway, adjusting encounters for hipsers is an easy fix, just add more listen/spot to the mobs. Adjusting it for shifters is not easy, since they have far more Saves, AC and resists then almost all other classes at any level you compare them to.

You can't just add more Anti-Shifter to the mobs to balance it. They don't have a special feature, they are good at everything. Unlimited abilities like drider form no save root and Rakshasha ice storm enunciate it further. Balancing for shifters makes areas impossible for everyone else.

Molemen < Goblins, and by 30 you get a load of XP from Ragnar and Alzarra.

As to shifter having far more AC/AB/Resists/Saves... Thats absolute crap. Rufio has a build on its way through that has better AC and AB than sancreed, similar ressists and far better saves.
For 2/3 of his time in Moles, Sancreed had to be damn careful about keeping up mind blank and clarity, or he'd fail the molemen stunning song.

Drider root = FoM on enemies.
Rak Ice storm? = reasonably good, but no good in parties.
DR? = Barbarians. I've seen a barb soloing Celestia and the Abyss, when Sancreed can't touch either. He can sort of muck around in Abyss, but blinding tends to run out before I can kill even an archer. DR and DI and masses of HP serve builds better than AC and Edodge when soloing upper areas.
Anyway, levelling is far less of an issue. Some things are gonna be a huge pita to level, and shifters are like HiPSers, they are easy to level - a survival mechanism and a killing mechanism.

Aiea, when I say shifter/good toon, I mean an epic form shifter (once you have iron golem or dragon shape, you have something with at least 50 AB and at least 60 AC, HP and reasonable resistances) or a build thats good. Thats well built. You know, like a pure bard that gets good AB/AC numbers, or a paladin with 50s AB and 60s AC by 30.

[mining]

Also, I can hardly believe you trawled forums to misquote me. Here's the rest of the quote:

15) 3 NC/TC players are not a bunker buster against 5 PWnD people. <This is PVP related quote
Numbers still matter.
IMO, a build is overpowered when it defeats far greater numbers. <part quoted in contrast to my 'solo levelling areas quote'
Basically, if I could bring 3 CoT / Shifter / your favourite NC/TC is uber and needs nerfs build to AO, and take relics against 5 RK/AO toons *reliably*, THEN a toon
would be overpowered compared to its foes.

I should also clarify the above; that implies that the 5 AORK toons are being played well, not doing stuff like using tokens when they'll miss, not having any spotters when there's a HiPSer, etc.

Just highlight the spoilers to see my comment.

Also; So I guess you believe that any shifter is equivalent of a "good" toon (and the good portion is by your definition). And you still think that they are not overpowered. The statements together are just contrary.

Yes, yes I do. Pure fighters have killed Sancreed with their token numerous times, ditto with Gold. Sancreed has killed pure fighters when they don't try to nuke him with it. Conclusion? Pure fighters have an incredible once per (w/e time) power.

PVM? Yes, that power still rocks, but it might not be enough to let you kill the 1021 HP Hound Archon thats gonna start hitting you for big numbers very soon.

PvM and PVP are like chalk and cheese.

[Amoenotep]

so its been beaten, dug up, beaten some more, set on fire, tied to a tree and ridden for candy, slapped around, mugged at the train station, been put in lock up over night, had glue made out of it, got stuck to another one, beat that one too, beat its whole family, beat its owners, beat the Triple Crown....let the horse die.

[Lokey]

Also current HiPS beats any npc without true see. Bad comparison.

[DM-Baccob]

Also current HiPS beats any npc without true see. Bad comparison.

I think thats the point boss generalisations don't work EVER! (my turn to derail the thread)