LinuxPup wrote:One other thing... it can be changed so that SR comes back after you get raised/resurrected? Also, stealing a relic removes all SR... seems pretty odd.
I like your suggestions about increasing SR on the subraces except for this one
IMO there needs to be a state of vulnerability after taking a relic- that would require you to defeat your opponents and get a rest in before recovering from the relic cradle's strain.
As oposed to running in and running out while ignoring the PC defenders because you're either: too fast, too much ac, or difficult to hit with spells.
The thing is... innate SR is supposed to be just that, innate... its not a buff like the SR spell. If they're going to do that, they should drop monks SR to 0 too. But, I don't think they should do that either...
ECL3 SR is anything but overpowered right now, and even if it went to level + 11, a caster with epic spell penetration would have the upper hand. Monks have uber SR, not because of the 10 + level, but because they can take Improved Spell Resistance multiple times.
Yes but the monks are trading some needed features for the extra high SR, which they won't need everytime, while the innate SR is traded for the low xp gain. It's not the same.
I'm not implying, the SR shouldn't be raised. I actually agree pretty much with it. ECL3 is a tough nut as it is right now. Either higher SR or another bonus has to be given to those subraces to make it worth it.
Btw. the same applies to Air, Fire and Water Genasi. They are at best only ECL1 in my eyes right now.
Yes but the monks are trading some needed features for the extra high SR, which they won't need everytime, while the innate SR is traded for the low xp gain. It's not the same.
No its not... its better for the monk. Hence 70 SR being possible...a pure monk gets 50 for free (with no necessary ECL penalty) and the possibility of more if he wants... and its not like ECL3 needs the SR at all times, just often. And believe me, ECL3 is a *huge* price to pay for the SR... hence so few ECL3 characters.
This seems like a bug to me... SR should remain at all times... only way to drop should be via effects like Mord. It's like an Elf losing Keen Sense or a Gnome losing their Illusion spell focus... its part of being their race... its not a buff.
It was disappointing to find out that when I *most* need SR, I lose it.
I agree with linux here, if you have nature SR you should be allowed to keep it through everything. Unless something like if you pick up a relic it actually adds negative SR, so that not only the ECL races suffer.
Dos that ocur on all sr subraces? I have nevr noticed it on my Githzerai, tho it used to happen all the time when I played a Svirfneblin.
Best Regards
VagaStorm
Why would I want to count 12 hours twice? I’m perfectly capable of counting to 24, and while we’re at it, can someone go shoot named time zones. GMT+x is all we need!
Amoenotep wrote:if you die to harper that just means your build sucks.
The only way our Dev crew could get SR to work past the hard-coded cap of 32 was the take a side-twisting route which I believe makes the SR count as a Buff with an infinite duration, only going away if you die or Mord's lowers it. Unfortunately, this system isn't perfect and you have to rest to regain any lost SR.
As far as a bump in SR goes, I'm only a messenger here, but if you want it raised, the ECL 3 would have to sacrifice some bonus it gains elsewhere. Where are you willing to cut back for each race to gain that SR?
Serving NS4 proper as Lathander and Sleeth as Bahamut.
I just loged in to test, and sr on the Githzerai is not an onuse anything buff. Only the ac boost is. Asent tried to get it dispelled yeat tho...
Best Regards
VagaStorm
Why would I want to count 12 hours twice? I’m perfectly capable of counting to 24, and while we’re at it, can someone go shoot named time zones. GMT+x is all we need!
Amoenotep wrote:if you die to harper that just means your build sucks.
Sparky, let's take Drow for example. What could they possibly sacrifice thats greater than the sacrifice of already being ECL 3, and still remain a Drow?
Look at Earth Gens, +2 STR and +2 CON, and the amazingly powerful Earth Gen racial token, but they are only ECL 2, they are built to be fighters, and fighter is their favored class. Drow on the other hand get +2 INT and +2 CHA over a plain Elf, yet cleric is the favored class?
We're talking about an extra 5 or 6 to their SR in the end. It's not unbalancing, it's actually more balancing considering monk SR, SR penetration feats, and planar caster levels.
I have no problem with having to rest to regain SR after death or taking a relic if thats how it had to be coded to give the SR in the 1st place. Thats minor. It's the fact that the SR is hardly even a novelty reduced to the level it is now.
Do the devs really think there needs to be a cut back? Currently the level + 5 does almost nothing unless I'm in really low level areas where I can't get any xp. In high level areas, its better to be an Earth Genasi than a Githyanki because of this... at least damage reduction and extra AC translate well in planar areas... and its only ECL 2. A +11 bonus just puts a character on a 50/50 level ground with a caster of the same level with no spell penetration feats.
That said, I guess I would sacrifice the Githyanki's psionic ability for a level +11 bonus though. Perhaps the Githzerai could sacrifice their Weapon Finesse feat. Svirfneblin might be able to part ways with their +2 bonus to all saves, or +4 AC, or to keep their concealment at only 40% (this is low when considering Blind Fight). And, maybe change Drow's aura to plain old Darkness spell 1x/day (in which it doesn't stay attached to the Drow character).
Perhaps make an NPC that transforms ECL 3 characters into this new form... where they lose bonuses in order to gain SR... so its optional... at least for pre-existing characters.
the issue is that the devs don't see sr of 5+level as a problem.
this much sr translates into about a 20% magic resistance against a similar level enemy (assuming folks are supposed to fight stuff around their level.) this sounds great on paper.
however even 2 feats in spell penetration (which at high levels is very common at least among player characters) renders this power useless. spell breach/mords lowers your sr and renders this power useless even if the enemy has no spell penetration feats (and even the weird fighter/cleric chick dwarves in the planes manage to drop mords on a regular basis).
"in theory, practice and theory are the same." but here players on the ground are seeing something else.
If folks dont want to have this feature remain useful at higher levels in the face of mords/spell penetration/etc then i say get rid of it entirely and drop these races to ecl 2. this much sr in no way compares to the ecl 2 earth genasi power (which DOES scale with level and remains useful as your enemies grow more powerful). without sr these races become more or less on par with tieflings (ecl2).
as an aside, i've rolled 2 ecl 3 characters and 3-4 ecl 2, and i've noticed that *in practice* ecl3 is more like ecl4-5 over time. over the course of time with the similar level partners i invariably fall about 4+ levels behind. my ecl 2 characters in almost the exact same situations never fall more than 1 or 2 levels behind. how is this relevant? due to real world party mechanics ecl 3 toons get hit way way harder in the xp department and don't get nearly the return on investment that other races do. once you fall behind the xp slope falls more and more dramatically and your effective ecl goes through the roof.
if you have access to the xp formulas and are handy with excel run some sheets to see what i mean.
Parties are a problem for all ECLers, the trick is to group up with peeps lower than you, then you can stay with em longer.
I find it becomes less of a problem at epic levels, 'cos the speed of levelling slows so it takes longer to separate.
With regards to what the races might give up for an SR increase:
From Githzerai I'd give up Persuade and Taunt.
From Svirfneblin I'd give up +4 deflection AC.
The others are tougher, 'cos there's bound to be someone actually using this stuff.
From Drow I'd give up Darkvision (but leave Low Light) and Will Save.
Actually dunno what to give up from Githyanki. Reducing stats would be a minefield because it might mess up feat prereqs, and the skill and save bonuses are just so... appropriate to the race.
