Shifters Overpowered? Just Right? Glaring Weaknesses?

[Shamedmonkey]

Rufio, nothing personal man, but if you can make an SD that matches the stats you posted I'd like to see that.

Enter Dr. McNinja. A couple less points in AC, but I'm using a small shield, not a large, and no armor skin. (This is with a bard around, obviously.) More hide. More MS. Equal AB. Better damage. Better saves.

[burrahobbit]

Why do you guys keep challenging them to show you builds, they don't make the statements just guessing it can be done. I guess it doesnt bother me, its really funny when they throw it in your face.

I'm not sure shifters need to be changed, like everyone keeps mentioning they have lots of weaknesses, but if a change needs to happen why not just drop the double dodge ac off of boots, easy simple change i would assume.

[OpalimTeGolim]

Thanks for sharing the build with us Rufio. That build does not require any books, it is ecl 1, it gets SR 45 and the stats you mentioned (all of which can be improved in a party, see below). How many other builds have that?

21 dex
43 ranks
15 feats
10 ghostwise
7 armor
7 cloak
8 boots
2 rings
4 shield
4 one with the land
_____
121 hide

Bard can give up to + 8 bonus. Would that count? Also, spotter gets -10 when in combat. I've seen ppl with wizards with spot around 120 having problems seeing CoN Moi in fight.

AB:
24 bab
21 dex
4 feats
1 blinding
7 weapon (was holding a mace from HoD the only time I ever saw it)
2 (only if outdoors)
1 ghostwise token
______
60 ab

As far as I can see, you get at least +10 more ab to reach ab cap. +4 from song and +3 from ava and +1 from neg plane boss ss would give you up to 68 ab, right?

AC:
10 base
21 dex
6 armor
7 small shield
5 natural
5 deflection
6 double dodge from boots
2 blinding
2 armor skin
8 tumble

Add +4 from bard song and you end up with ac 76.

Crazy, I agree that this game is about team work and that proper team can beat every build. In fact, one could use that argument to argue that there is no such thing as overpowered toons, because a good group can fight them all. For example when PMs got nerfed, I'd expect you to use the same "team work" argument, but you did not:

source:
http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns/viewto ... e#p1024261

Well Frendel, the only constant round here is change. Which despite the cries of outrage on all of our parts over the various changes, in my opinion change is still a good thing. I'm sure that if this current change shows that PM's as a class and specifically PM summoners are unplayable, more changes will come down the road.

I personally don't believe that any changes are necessary, PM summoners are still extremely powerful, they're just not the one man armies they used to be.

You can buy a summon control wand from Elvin the vendor. Great investment for summoner builds.

Don't get me wrong, team work does matter, but i have a problem using it as an argument because it is very subjective. Good players and good teams will know how to fight any build.

The question is simple: can one building in a ao/rk/sl/ma, using the approximately same effort (approximately same ecl and 0 books), build a toon that either efficiently mimics or counters hipser shifter in a realistic pvp scenario so lets talk about that. So far, the only good argument I've seen is that mages destroy them. Can more people confirm that? My mage can not see him so I can't say how hard/easy is to kill such build with a mage.

Also, there are some other strong builds, like Mindflayer with DC 45 will save vulnerability ray (no spellcraft or mind effect saves counted). AC on that toon can go at least in high 70ies and once the enemy fails the will save, you or team members will rarely do under 50 dmg. Is there a reasonable way to mimic of counter that build in other factions?

[Mixtli]

Again - drow form is nothing special.

One can make a much better hipser than that. In different factions.
And no, it doesn't shift into anything.

[rocketkai]

Also, there are some other strong builds, like Mindflayer with DC 45 will save vulnerability ray (no spellcraft or mind effect saves counted). AC on that toon can go at least in high 70ies and once the enemy fails the will save, you or team members will rarely do under 50 dmg. Is there a reasonable way to mimic of counter that build in other factions?

Unfortunately, the mind blast counted for spellcraft saves. There are full of misunderstanding things in this post about hipser and I really don't bother to point them out one by one.

[Kromix]

i object!!! Mages are Overnerfed!

[Rufio]

Rufio, nothing personal man, but if you can make an SD that matches the stats you posted I'd like to see that.

I can build a SD in TC with 134 hide without bard song, or even trickery domain, with the same AC and saves.

[Kromix]

NERF HIM!

[weasel423]

Also, there are some other strong builds, like Mindflayer with DC 45 will save vulnerability ray (no spellcraft or mind effect saves counted). AC on that toon can go at least in high 70ies and once the enemy fails the will save, you or team members will rarely do under 50 dmg. Is there a reasonable way to mimic of counter that build in other factions?

Unfortunately, the mind blast counted for spellcraft saves. There are full of misunderstanding things in this post about hipser and I really don't bother to point them out one by one.

and the Mindflayer is SD bait...

[Rufio]

asking if you can mimic the mind blast is like us asking if we can mimic assassin death attack (not that the mind blast is even as close to as powerful).

[Daral0085]

I want monk dragons in TC. Don't discriminate, give third classes to everyone! Separate but equal is not equal at all!

[Kromix]

[Kromix]

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[Rainswept]

Rufio, nothing personal man, but if you can make an SD that matches the stats you posted I'd like to see that.

I can build a SD in TC with 134 hide without bard song, or even trickery domain, with the same AC and saves.

With 72 self buffed AC, epic Dodge, and 45 SR?

Here's my point, as far as it goes, only referencing this one shape. My original Reaver hipster, one I consider a useful if not fantastic build, were I to have built it with all 5 feats, 3 books, and the same gear, would hit about 107 hide, 45 SR, low 60's AC, and nowhere close to the AB listed, and be ECL 3.

A Drow shifter with no stealth feats at all would have better AB, AC, equal SR, and by your math 106 hide. Your math leaves out Trackless Step.

Those numbers are given with nothing more than taking the levels in shifter. The way I look at it, that means EVERY shifter with 17 levels (which is most shifters) and enough skill points to pop into just the basic ranks of hide (a shifter class skill) will equal or beat the hide of plenty of level 40 hipsters, get free hips and 5d6 sneak all just as a side note if they happen to be bored with whatever they are actually designed to do. As a bonus for an ECL O ghostwise. That's assuming my understanding that the TC job bonus to hide won't stack on top of that.

Druid/Shifters are like those iPhone commercials. There's an app (shape) to do damn near anything u need. Want to hide? Theres a shape for that. Want crit immunity and DR? Theres a shape for that. Want a dragon with a useful fear aura? Want free racial SR? Want free haste to get there quicker? May I offer you 51 STR scyther sir? Please remember as a bonus, all our shapes do come with free immunity to disarm as a courtesy for doing business with us.

[Kromix]

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