Pure fighter bonus and pure FTR vs WM

[cRaZy8or5e]

Arent different people talking about different things?
The people that say WM arent too strong, seem to mostly be talking about the heavy WM builds, where you take for example 28 levels of WM.
While some others claim WM are strong, but those builds seem to all use only 7 WM levels.
So the problem seems to be that sure WM levels can be usefull, but investing heavily into WM isnt too useful and doesnt make you the melee monster you would hope to be.
Tho maybe in a group setting with all buffs its different?

The MD scythers a la Mental and beefy were 25wm/5bd/10ftr tanks, divine reaper's builds were cleric heavy yes, I had a str based 22wm6mk12ftr half ogre named Ajax who could dual wield bswords at 66 AB with full bard and cleric support (never had it back then, so off I went into my cleric and bard building) and my brother in law had a warhammer wielding half ogre named scorpio basically the same build. Had crap for saves, but man they hit like trucks. I was just saying that weaponmasters multiclassed can be far better than a pure fighter. In line with what Korr said, it all depends on the player and the build, just like every thing else.

[Lorkar]

I went straight WM (28) because the AB should have been out of sight but with everything that has been tweaked and such it turns out the 28 WM's AB is only slightly better than a pure Fighter and on par with the bard WM builds. Yeah you get the damage but unless you can take the beating while dealing it it is almost a wash considering a pure fighter can stand there longer dealing out lesser damage. My point was that for all the feats you need for WM and to take 28 levels of it, there should be a greater disparity in the AB between the two. With 28 WM you get considerably less feats and only get what? 3 more AB? Epic WM gets 6 feats as opposed to the 10 feats of the Epic Fighter. Add to that the the 10 feats the pre-epic fighter gets plus the normal 14 feats and that comes out to 35 feats for the Pure Fighter versus 24(if fighter is used to qualify for WM) for the 28 WM build. Take 6 feats away for the WM requirement and you are down to 14. Now if you gave Dev Crit to the WM at his 29th WM level you wouldn't hear another peep about this from me. I know it will never happen but it makes the most sense to me considering what 28+ levels of WM should be capable of doing to their opponent. As Johnny Storm always said "FLAME ON!"

Edited for incorrect number of feats

[Korr]

Maybe 30 WM, not 29 though

[Steveohio]

Yea, everyone knows that 7 levels of WM, even with the feats/ability pts required, it greatly increases dmg output, its just that the high level ie, 28-30 WM just get nothing but a x1 crit multiplier +2 to crit range and 1 more ab. Compare that all to the pure fighter gets in comparision, its not even remotely close.

[priestofbast]

i like high level bards with 7 levels of wm and some fighter....

the kind of bard that doesn't have to stand in the back all the time and sing...

23 bard 7 wm 10 fighter is not a bad place to start looking....

but i agree

i've never seen the point in a epic wm


catty

[LinuxPup]

Pure bards FTW

[Pappypapa]

I'm fully on Lorkar's side. The fighter does seem to be far too good compared to the hardcore WM, because they're pretty equally good in PvP, while the pure Fighter is incredibly superior to the WM in PvE. After all, WM is, on the high levels, not that far from being completely useless. The only place I can think of, where they are good, is Dragon Eyrie. And even there they don't really impress, since doing divine damage is the only way to do some impressive damage there. I think this aspect of balancing was kind of left out in the CoT discussion, as well. While CoT (God, please forgive me for bringing it up) may not be über in PvP - hell, it's even pretty sucky, from what I've seen - it is insane compared to all other classes when it comes to PvE (yes, I have one myself, so my wish is not just to nerf Your character). And let's face it, although PvP is the heart of NS, more time is generally spent on farming gear than killing players.

[Korr]

God Pappy what have you done?!?!?! Last time I even mentioned CoT I found myself fighting to keep from acquiring new holes in less than admirable places!!! Though I do agree, irrestisable divine damage, best DR in the game (2nd best is SD if anyone ever cared to level them BTW (though its only 1 higher than Epic Warding)) is hard to beat when its not hard to get 60+ AB.

On topic though, I have (albeit a non-traditional) pure fighter. He is crap PvE if he cant crit . . . CRAP! It would be different I guess if I had a huge amount of strength. Where WM really shines is that a dex based WM can achieve a H U G E AB, good AC and whip out some major damage against crittable opponents (which is just as much draw back that rogue has (tho rogue has UMD)). But again I think it all stems from WHAT YOU WANT!!! Take a str based WM with a morningstar and a scythe and PvP AND PvE you can plow (still need a party, but thats a boat everyone is in for the most part (cough CoT cough).

[Steveohio]

Yea, unfortunately the biggest problem with doing both morning star and scythe or any 2 weapon types. Is the HUGE amount of feats then required to even specialize in 1 weapon.

I would almost call for some kind of way the weaponmaster to become a weaponSmaster.

Because even if you have a high damage output WM, if someone is able to prepare for your weapon type, slashing, peircing, bludgening, and just use immunity or resist items to nullify any advantage a WM would have. In order to circumvent this, you have to switch to a different weapon. But the amount of even more feats for the weaponmaster to be able to use a weapon better.

Lets see. Weapon Focus, Weapon of choice(req 13 wm), improved critical, epic weapon focus, and say your a ftr mix, the most common wm base class, weapon spec, and epic weapon spec. Thats 4 more feats, 6 if your a fighter in order to really specialize in another weapon. They are there, and you can do it. But thats all your going to get. But you almost have to do it, unless you want to be pigeon-holed into 1 specific weapon type.

The main problem with Weaponmasters is this, they are a 1-trick pony, and their trick isn't much better than what any other class can do, some ab, and some crits on 1 weapon. Still the same base damage type. So when you talk about Bard/Cleric/Monk + WM combos, it isn't the same thing, they aren't solely dependant on that one trick, they can do other things. A pure wm specced in 1 weapon thats going against a high -/ slashing/piercing/bludgening, thing, they are just done for.

Having some advantage with all melee weapons or a much higher ab, like +1 every 2 epic levels, instead of every 3 levels could really help out. That is, if you feel the epic(28-30) WM is not up to par with any other classes.

[MLoki]

This was brought up on another thread http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns/viewto ... &t=1001072 but perhaps some type of Dev Crit that isn't Dev Crit for a pure (ie 30 WM) would make it worth putting that many levels into WM.

[cely]

I would almost call for some kind of way the weaponmaster to become a weaponSmaster.

From: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Weapon_master#Notes

"Although unspecified in the manual or in the game description, it is possible for an epic weapon master to take additional weapons of choice as class epic bonus feats (provided the weapon focus prerequisites are met). This is still restricted to melee weapons."

[Amoenotep]

yeah...technically with the more WM lvls you can actually be a WM in all 3 weapon damage types...so you have more versatility and still putting out your stuff

[Lorkar]

So you saying burn another feat and possibly 1 more on top of that to get the max AB. On a class that is already painfully low on feats to begin with. So we start with 24 total feats if you use 6 levels of fighter to qualify for WM, minus 6 for WM leaves 18, minus 1 for improved crit on weapon of choice provided it isnt a kukri, scimitar or rapier. Minus 3 for second weapon of choice, improv crit and epic weap focus, minus 3 more for third weapon of choice, improv crit and ep weap focus. That brings us to what? Eleven...eleven feats stretched over 40 levels to shore the weak spots any build is going to have. And gods help you if you take weap spec and ep weap spec for each weapon. That brings you to 5. Blinding speed for dexers? down to 4. Armor skin, blind fight, epic prowess? Oh yeah...never mind, that puts you out of feats if you plan on dual wielding. Taking a third weapon of choice is only feasible if you want to really make that WM worth as much as that 2 dollar hooker on the street corner that gives change when finished.

[Amoenotep]

never said you would like it...just said you could do it

[Lorkar]

I may not like it...but what can you do about it?