Blackguards

[cRaZy8or5e]

Also, CoT is faction specific PrC like RDD, PM,.... and BG is universal non TC/NC, it is different.

Paladins aren't a PRC but are only available in NC and RK. And since Aasimar's make the best paladins, that kinda singles it out for NC.
NC has 2 PRCs, CoT and PDK.
All of the above class have abilities that are mainly anti-evil. Pally smite, divine sacrifice, radiance (vs neutral @35), and martyrdom. CoT smite and wrath. PDK buffs are all(mostly?) non-evil. Most of these abilities are very powerful because of their narrow "vs. evil" focus, but no other factions have anything like this vs good.

The only ability that a PDK has that could be close to considered "vs. evil" is the heroic shield which can be given only to non-evil alignments or something along those lines.

Assassin and BG are the only PRCs that are required to be evil (PM is non-good). All of SL is required to be evil. I can't think of any feat/ability that is specifically anti-good except BG smite... NC seems to have the odds completely stacked in their favor when fighting vs. evil, which is basically all of SL and any BG. Improving BGs would at least give NC something other than mages to fear. It still leaves SL out in the cold vs NC toons, but improvements there are an entirely different topic.

NC is supposed to be good at fighting evil. They still suck at fighting mages. We've proven that to you all.

On to BG's, a properly built and played BG with support can hang with any CoT out there. It'll fold like a cheap lawnchair against a pure pally because well that's how they made the pure class bonuses for pallies.

If you make CoT's good only you're limiting the already heavily restricted build options in NC. I'm not saying that it really matters. Most of the CoT builds that I know of out there are good aligned anyway. Everyone goes drow and goes pally or Aasimar and has to be good anyway. If you make them good only that ruins the flavors available though, I really wanted to build a water gen cleric/CoT caster . But w/e. Aiea happened to find the one Githzerai cleric CoT that frog loves to roll up and got frustrated because she couldn't smite it. Boohoo. Try to adjust your tactics, instead of making the accusation here about how it's unfair that CoT's get smite even if they're neutral (and even if they never use it).

Maybe a good fix for that is that a BG with 25 levels can get smite neutral like a pure pally. Smiters in general are crappy builds because you only have a couple different ways of trying to fight and its based on one or two rolls going your way. It's fun of course, but you can't expect smiters to win all your battles for you. You can expect to have good odds to win one, maybe two engagements, but that's about it.

The argument that BG's are undergunned or horrible is just a bad one though. They get lots of cool tricks, a beat down artist for a summon and divine might and divine shield. IF CoT's/pallies still had the double divine might then the argument was more valid but that was removed already. Make a dex based BG and get some cleric and bard support. Then if BG's still suck, learn how to play cuz that kind of a build shouldn't suck , but you might.

[mining]

Maybe a good fix for that is that a BG with 25 levels can get smite neutral like a pure pally.

Pure pallies don't smite neutral, iirc. Just get HA damage vs neutral.

Problem with heavy BG is difficulty in capping AB. Get some cleric levels, and the problem is gone. Yeah, you can't make a gith monk BG. Can make a druid/BG/rogue with epic dodge, though.

The main reason why rogues in NC is our catchcry is clearly because if we had rogues in NC (>.> *clearly* >.>)... We could make cleric 2, rogue 13, CoT 25, edodging 66 AB, 78 AC builds with decent saves. Ok, cool. I mean, you guys totally can't make druid/rogue/BGs that get close to that with crit + sneak immunity. And that AB/AC is *so* unattainable to a similar BG, which could go, say, BG 26, rogue 13, fighter 1 or something and pull the summon out too.

Lets face facts. CoTs are good melee fighters with a little time bomb in their bottoms saying "I suck in 60...59...58...". They're also highly level dependant. A melee CoT needs 25 levels at a minimum. That hardly leaves a bunch of options. They're also far inferior smiters to paladins.

BGs, on the other hand, are an amazingly good dip class, with a solid summon and some decent feat options. Heavy in the BG, you lose sight of why BG is good heavy; you get a summon, and some feats, and some sneak die. You don't get amazing AB. You get the potential for amazing party AB. Self buffing is a problem.

[Daltian]

Also, CoT is faction specific PrC like RDD, PM,.... and BG is universal non TC/NC, it is different.

Paladins aren't a PRC but are only available in NC and RK. And since Aasimar's make the best paladins, that kinda singles it out for NC.
NC has 2 PRCs, CoT and PDK.
All of the above class have abilities that are mainly anti-evil. Pally smite, divine sacrifice, radiance (vs neutral @35), and martyrdom. CoT smite and wrath. PDK buffs are all(mostly?) non-evil. Most of these abilities are very powerful because of their narrow "vs. evil" focus, but no other factions have anything like this vs good.

Assassin and BG are the only PRCs that are required to be evil (PM is non-good). All of SL is required to be evil. I can't think of any feat/ability that is specifically anti-good except BG smite... NC seems to have the odds completely stacked in their favor when fighting vs. evil, which is basically all of SL and any BG. Improving BGs would at least give NC something other than mages to fear. It still leaves SL out in the cold vs NC toons, but improvements there are an entirely different topic.

I don't think SL has odds against it when fighting NC. CoTs and palas bonuses vs evil are far less powerrfull then whole range or arcane builds available to SL and MA. And PDK buffs dont work for evil. I don't see why would you care about that? Its not like we buff you to death.

[Daltian]

And while we are saying evil is weak how do you explain the fact that tc/nc needs at least 3 man if not more to stop 1 well built PM just because we don't have arcane casters?

[Alkapwn]

Good is Weak. Evil is Mighty! To ashes with you surfacers!!!!! May Lolth feed on your intestines out of your own helmets.

*random morning spam*

[mining]

And while we are saying evil is weak how do you explain the fact that tc/nc needs at least 3 man if not more to stop 1 well built PM just because we don't have arcane casters?

True that. Arcane casters are the hard counters to nearly anything.

[Mixtli]

How many neutral CoT smiters are out there anyway? I'm pretty sure every smiter in NC has Paladin levels.

Change to CoT alignment is not needed, however, i agree, why not make blackguard a bit better. Worse thing that can happen is a bit of a challenge for TNC.

[mining]

Worst thing that can happen is EMA + PM again

[mining]

Anyway, how about this:
Bull's Strength (Blackguard ability): Enhanced when a Blackguard also has the Epic Fiending Servant feat; it gives an additional +3 AB and +3 damage. With 20+ Blackguard levels, the bonus is increased to +4 AB and +1d8 damage.

[Twiggy]

Blackguard summons get bonus to their saves the same as the blackguards cha modifier so not really sure why the saves would be crappy. (I suppose it depends by what you mean by use of the word. Mine has a fort save over 40 which I wouldn't consider to fit being called that.)

The summons has a weapon called a trident but the summon is pre 1.69 and unless it was changed may well just be carrying a spear with that name.

I don't see why CoT shouldn't have to be good. Personally it has nothing to do with roleplay, what the class is or what it is called per se, but the fact that in this game it smites EVIL. Why shouldn't something that smites evil be required to be good when something that smites good is required to be evil?

And as to something I think really has no bearing on what Cahaal suggested: A huge LOL to taking Githzerai away being a nerf to CoT because you say it takes away the toughest melee monk/CoT. As if you can't make a great melee monk/CoT that isn't Gith. Gith make plenty of other tough melee builds as well, monk/(any number of classes here). But as we all know SL can't have Gith monks to improve their melee builds, better give them lawful neutral back. Your justification could be applied to so many race/class combos across the factions I really have trouble taking it seriously at face value.

This is what I have been saying all along! (well not exactly) The only thing i hear is don't make CoT good only cause it closes our creative juices for making builds. So far the only build i hear u guys are making is a gith CoT which is one choice. Not using much creative juices there.

So your reason to take away lawful neutral from CoT is because it can smite? Lets take away good from cleric because it can harm then. And take away evil form cleric too because it can heal. And take away good from wizard because it can summon undead,.........

You also need to know that smiter CoT will NEVER be neutral. You want your first 10 levels to have at least 5 paladin if not 10. So pretty much, smiter CoT is good so there is no reason to be sad panda about it anymore.

Also again, you need to take in consideration that CoT is faction specific class and it might be stronger then average PrC, but all faction specific PrC's are stronger then average. Well all except assassin IMO.

reason why we don't do that to clerics is it applies across the board. CoT thing only applies to them. CoT adds Melee and awesome saves. And also a once per day ability that lasts way too short to be of use for anything but boss battles and a short stint in pvp. (unless it was nerf'd) No classes are alignment nuetral only. so the only thing that would be hindered is the race you can choose. So u can't be a gith CoT + anything lawful or chaotic. actually now i think of it that does kinda suck for gith's. But would really only affect NC.

Meh without the wiki being back up i'm kinda just spouting right now. How bout we nerf The planar races. Adding alignments to them? that would solve both problems. Make CoT good only, make BG's (high level BG's) more comparable to pally's, and add alignments to races.

One a second note if we are gonna make BG's more powerful, IE making the BG summon more powerful then you need to give the pally a summon. or if he goes against a BG he will get whaloped by the summon and the bg beating the crap outa him. In fact giving a pure pally a summon at lvl 40 sounds like an awesome idea

[Twiggy]

Anyway, how about this:
Bull's Strength (Blackguard ability): Enhanced when a Blackguard also has the Epic Fiending Servant feat; it gives an additional +3 AB and +3 damage. With 20+ Blackguard levels, the bonus is increased to +4 AB and +1d8 damage.

No one is doubting the BG's melee ability mining, that would add stuff that doesn't need to be added to. Boost the summon.

[mining]

Anyway, how about this:
Bull's Strength (Blackguard ability): Enhanced when a Blackguard also has the Epic Fiending Servant feat; it gives an additional +3 AB and +3 damage. With 20+ Blackguard levels, the bonus is increased to +4 AB and +1d8 damage.

No one is doubting the BG's melee ability mining, that would add stuff that doesn't need to be added to. Boost the summon.

Its like... Boost the summon, and it'll start being a real threat. Once its a real threat, and the BG is *already* a threat, BGs would be the best builds in the game, because they can hit 10 times a round, you'll always have someone flanking...

Melee Ability from a BG is around the only weakness they have. They have cast iron saves, AC, options, damage and an alright summon. Remember guys, its like RDDs: The Red Dragon form doesn't need to be the bee's knees, because RDD as a base class is already the bee's knees. That it rocks is just an added extra.

[burrahobbit]

The summon doesnt suck, you folks just dont use it correctly.

A few months ago we were discussing how mages suck. The reality is that these classes dont suck, some of you just dont know how to play them.

[Cahaal]

It's not about there being neutral smitters. It's about what the class has. The feats feel like good alignment feats. Just because there are no neutral smitters does not mean you can't make one. Could go monk/cleric/cot or bard/fighter/cot and be a neutral Gith smitter of evil. I'll start building them in my program and see how they turn out.

From NWN website: Stats - Champion of Torm
Hit Die: d10
Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor and shields.
Skill Points: 2 + Int Modifier
Requirements
To qualify as a champion of Torm, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria:
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Feats: Weapon Focus in a melee weapon
Alignment: Non-evil
Background
Champions of Torm are mighty warriors who dedicate themselves to Torm's cause, defending holy ground, destroying enemies of the church, and slaying mythical beasts.
Champion of Torm - Epic Levels (level 21+)
Torm guides the epic champion of Torm on her life journey. She has ascended through the ranks of holy warriors to become a symbol of Torm's might.

How can they be symbols of Torms might and not be good?

Twiggy, why would pallys need a summon? they get some amazing pure class bonuses and casting. Wanna disable the summon? Lay on hands will do it quick. If the pally is also a CoT the summon won't stand a chance.

Crazy, you said a properly buffed BG from a bard and cleric (you actually said "with support" I assume this is what you meant) can hang with a CoT. So one toon with buffs from 2 others can hang with a self buffed CoT? Is that what you are saying?

I might have misspoke about summon saves. My summon saves are F/R/W 42/37/32. It has no spellcraft though like some other summons I looked at and no SR. the only skill it has points in is Disc. It isn't even focused in the weapon it uses and the weapon, from what I can tell, hs no bonuses on it save for fire damage. I'm going to pit it against a solar, balor, and mummy and see how it turns out. I'll let you know. I already know who the PM summon turns out...BG summon dead.

[frogofpeace]

Here's how:

Name: Torm
Divine rank: lesser deity
Title(s): The True, the True Deity, the Loyal Fury
Symbols: right-hand gauntlet held upright with palm forward; a knight riding a great golden wyrm
Home plane:
Alignment: lawful good
Portfolio: duty, loyalty, obedience, paladins
Worshipers:
Worshiper alignments: LG, NG, LN
Cleric alignments: LG, NG, LN
Domains: good, healing, law, protection, strength
Favored weapon: "Duty's Bond" (greatsword)

More importantly, how can they be symbols of Torm's might and not get a great golden wyrm to ride?

CoTs are fine. They are big meleers because that's what NC gets, to counteract teh lack of arcane howitzers. They get DR, but they get hit a lot, too - see, balance. I'm sure one can make a fine CoT smiter. I'm guessing it would be dissatisfying with it for the same reason most people are dissatisfied with smiters in general.

BGs get what they get, which includes nice stuff. Diminishing returns in high levels, maybe they could use a little boost.

Funny how "my class needs to be boosted" seems to have turned into "your class needs to be nerfed." I guess the devs are reading though, they have a good grasp of balance, I think.