Shifters Overpowered? Just Right? Glaring Weaknesses?

[Daral0085]

What was the name of this thread again? I think someone changed the subject...

This is all very much on topic, since a lot of the complaints seem to focus on the drow shape. Some of the NC/TC players are simply trying to show that it does not get a better hide score than any dedicated SD.

[VagaStorm]

lol, the real question should be why ao accept that the rdd dragon is so medioker to the druid one

[Tsavong]

The well built RDD dragons still seem to do well.

[Rainswept]

Look at it this way: You can go RDD in one faction to have a dragon, or you can go druid/shifter in almost any and have the ability to self buff with full caster levels and epic spells.

You can go SD in some factions if you happen to be a good enough builder, and get 120 hide, or in TC you can go Druid/shifter and get a great hide build with 120+ hide, excellent XP and crazy high Dex. (tho the SD option in TC even comes with a hide bonus from jobs)

You can build a str Based scyther in most factions, or you can go druid/shifter and get one with whatever stat setup you want, great str, and as much dex as you want to pour in for AC since it carries over.

You can go to MA, build a PM, and get a build that's crit/sneak immune... or you can go Druid/shifter and choose which ele or undead form you want in whatever flavor of style you want for crit/sneak immunity.

As a bonus, all these forms come with immunity to disarm and yadda yadda all the other points that have been made. You can pick out all the various flavors and say "it's possible to do that in another way" and it's debatable for some of it, but the fact that one class combo gets that much incredibly powerful variety is overpowered IMO.

[Amoenotep]

druid= TC, AO, RK


so what your saying is we should completely disable shifter as a class because its whole point of being a class that is everything in one but not the best at anything and its usefullness?

can i disable bard too, cuz that class is way to powerful imo

[Shhhhhhh]

Should just remove RDD dragons and turn the RDD back to its original form.
Clearly adding in an extra option for RDD's was an insult to all AO players.
A secret attempt to nerf them and cause whines on the forums.

[Daral0085]

Look at it this way: You can go RDD in one faction to have a dragon, or you can go druid/shifter in almost any and have the ability to self buff with full caster levels and epic spells.

If by "almost any" you mean "RK and TC", then sure. One is your ally, the other gets shifter as a PrC. ...... you did realize that nobody else was building druid dragons right? Right?

You can go SD in some factions if you happen to be a good enough builder, and get 120 hide, or in TC you can go Druid/shifter and get a great hide build with 120+ hide, excellent XP and crazy high Dex. (tho the SD option in TC even comes with a hide bonus from jobs)

XP is irrelevant for a build. We make ridiculous ECL 3 "level to 10, delevel to 1, level to 40" type things because we want to maximize power. It's the price of doing business. In any case, I think we (TNC players) have sufficiently addressed the weaknesses of the drow shifter.

You can build a str Based scyther in most factions, or you can go druid/shifter and get one with whatever stat setup you want, great str, and as much dex as you want to pour in for AC since it carries over.

Ok, once again it's obvious you've never made either a tiger or kobold shifter. Perhaps you haven't even spec'ed them, because if you did you would realize they get way less AB than a pure fighter or WM str build. Really, go spec a kobold shifter some day and you'll realize what I'm talking about. Until then, you're just making stuff up and to anyone who knows how shifters really work, it's just plain laughable.

You can go to MA, build a PM, and get a build that's crit/sneak immune... or you can go Druid/shifter and choose which ele or undead form you want in whatever flavor of style you want for crit/sneak immunity.

Of course you know ele has nothing to do with shifter, given how many elemental hipser builds you AO/RK guys throw around. You probably have more of them than we do. Nerf yourself.

As for undead, it gets terrible AB and mediocre AC, no 3rd multiclass and is vulnerable to heal spells. I wish undead were more viable because I think they would be fun. That said, construct shifters are more viable and keep crit immunity, but once again they have the 3rd class restriction so they will never be as versatile as PMs, and they don't get as much AC.

As a bonus, all these forms come with immunity to disarm and yadda yadda all the other points that have been made. You can pick out all the various flavors and say "it's possible to do that in another way" and it's debatable for some of it, but the fact that one class combo gets that much incredibly powerful variety is overpowered IMO.

And that's your opinion. Coming from a factional alliance that gets access to every single class and race, although perhaps not at the same time. The only factional alliance that has access to powerful arcane, dragon and ranger builds, as well as the usual medley of bards, clerics, fighters and barbarians. There's almost nothing that you've described above that you can't build in AO/RK. Dragons? check. Hipsers? check. Crit-immune elementals? Check. Why does it matter if they're built using 3 classes or 1 if you can make them all in the same faction? IMO that is way overpowered, and yet even still you feel the need to supplement it with builds from other factions, including CoTs, shifters and PMs. Apparently access to every non-PrC class and the very powerful RDD PrC isn't enough, you have to have other factions' PrCs too. I think that's ridiculous and bad mannered, but that's just IMO also.

[Eldaquen]

I would like to discuss some points from the original post that started this thread.

Before I do, just going to say I am not saying that I am or am not in favor of a change to shifters. Just wish to discuss couple things Crazy8or5e suggested in his post. Trying to put forth an alternative but constructive idea.

A lot of discussion about this in other topics unrelated to the subject.

I used to be of the mind that the epic/ancient forms for shifters should be nerfed. Having fought against them a lot lately, I believe that is an erroneous position. Shifted forms have glaring weaknesses that can be exploited if you use the ol' nogin.

However *puts on benedict arnold hat*, I do think that it should be more difficult to get them. More should have to be invested in order to get these shapes. Maybe increase the amount of shifted levels required to have epic shifter forms, make it a blanket 25. Also, make it so that their ability stats are set. So instead of a 50 str 40 dex Kobold set his dex at 18 so you have a 50 str 30 dex char. Instead of a 52 dex 40 con HiPSer drow, you have a 52 dex drow 30 con.

I think leaving the ability stats to be the same as the shifter's original form was a neat idea, but resulted in some very powerful builds. I think you should maybe allow that for the epic feated shapes (construct, oustider, dragon, undead), but for the free shapes(greater wildshape/humanoid shape), it should require a greater investment to acheive the epic forms as they are now.

Other ideas on how to nerf/fix/change shifters and druids?

I'm of the mind that druids have taken enough of a beating and are perfectly fine just the way they are, elemental shapes, hellballs, dragons and all.

Crazy I understand your point regarding in order to achieve the epic version of a shape that more should be invested. However, I respectively disagree on the method. I do understand and on some level agree that possibly epic level shapes should have (again not advocating for a change or dissauding from a change either) a higher level of commitment to achieve. I was pondering your thoughts about commitment today and the existing mechanics regarding epic shapes, which lead to a different suggestion.

The epic shapes that this would apply to are:
Greater Wildshape I
Greater Wildshape II
Greater Wildshape III
Humanoid Shape
Greater Wildshape IV

Construct shape, dragonshape, outsider shape already have a high commitment hurdle, so these do not need to be updated, and from the tenur of this thread these shapes are not the focus of the anst. Undead shape does not, and imo should not due to the major weaknesses that shape receives.

Your suggestion of a 25 shifter level requirement would make creating a true versatile shifter, jack of all trades, impossible to build. I am refering to a druid 20/shifter 20 build. This type of design would give the builder access to all shapes, including epic. I was working on another post for this thread that I abandoned (the post), but part of it was spec-ing out such a build to illustrate a point. Which now is more applicable to this discussion train of thought. Side note the 20/20 I was spec'ed was rather intriging and some have interest in trying.

A druid at level 20, as implemented now gains access to elder elemental shape. With 20 level of shifer, as implemented now, a 20/20 build also has acess to the epic versions of Greater Wildshape I, Greater Wildshape II, Greater Wildshape III, Humanoid Shape, and Greater Wildshape IV. Now I know others have made points against the versatility but please bear with me. A 20/20 druid/shifter design to have all shapes, per spec, would try to obtain 30 wisdom, otherwise no dragonshape, no Construct (Wis 27), no Outsider shape (Wis 25). Obtaining the high wisdom is cruicial to my suggestion. By striving for 30 wisdom, the other ability scores are sacraficed and thereby lower. By not spending ability increases in Str, Con or Dex the 20/20 design does not achieve uber stats in multiple ability scores in the Epic versions of Greater Wildshapes and Humaniod, at least not in the melee ability scores of Str, Con and Dex. The Wisdom requirement balances out the build, by keeping designers/builders from having both high dex and con or high str and dex, etc. when using greater wildshape or humanoid.

To return to point: you put forth that obtaining epic Greater wildshapes, and humanoid should require more investment. Also recommended that the ability stats be set. I would suggest a different solution that would meet both of your concerns but not be an increased level requirement. I believe a wisdom requirement to achieve epic levels would take care of both: the need for commitment, and address loading up on an opposite melee stat (Str, Dex or Con) that carries forward to the shape. I do not beleive the regular shapes (non-epic) need such a requirement as the tenur of the objections seem focused on Epic versions of greater Wildshapes and Humaniod. As I stated above Construct Shape, Dragonshape, and outsider shape have a wisdom requirement. By having it forces the builder to spend ability points in Wisdom instead of other stats to obtain the desired shape.

I propose the following instead:
Greater Wildshape I: Epic version.....................currently no epic versions.
Greater Wildshape II: Epic version....................13 levels of shifter plus wisdom requirement of 18
Greater Wildshape II: Epic version....................15 levels of shifter plus wisdom requirement of 20
Humanoid Shape: Epic version..........................17 levels of shifter plus wisdom requirment of 22
Greater Wildshape IV: Epic version...................20 levels of shifter plus wisdom requirement of 24

Requiring a wisdom requirement would redirect ability score expenditures from Str, Con, Dex to Wis. This would reduce the overall Str, Dex or Con that a 3 class shifter design would be able to spend otherwise forgo the epic versions of the shifter shapes.

If your thinking so what, I try to say in another way to clarify.

Right now, a dedicated 3 class shifter build say for Drow shape, for example, is able to take just enough wisdom for buffs and then max out another ability score, Con. As long as this hypothetical build has 17 levels of shifter the design obtains the epic version of Humanoid shape. However, if there was a Wis score requirement for the epic version then the ability to max another ability score is effectively reduced. I believe this is what causes some to think the epic versions are overpowered, the ability to have 2 high Melee type ability scores (Str, Con, Dex). If there was Wisdom requirement, then having 2 high ability scores in Str, Con or Dex is removed from the equation.

Using the build on page 1.
Druid(6), Shifter(17), Rogue(17), Ghostwise

STR: 12
DEX: 18 (25)
CON: 14 (18)
WIS: 12 (13)
INT: 12
CHA: 8

If a wisdom score of 22 was required for epic version: drow then the above's design would not receive the epic version.
In regular: drow, the above's ability scores would look like this:
STR: 12
DEX: 29
CON: 18
WIS: 13
INT: 12
CHA: 8

However, if the designer adjusted to meet a Wisdom requirement of 22; for epic version, then the stats would need to be changed. Perhaps something along these lines:

Druid(6), Shifter(17), Rogue(17), Ghostwise
STR: 12
DEX: 12 (16)
CON: 14 (18)
WIS: 18 (22)
INT: 12
CHA: 8
I am assuming the ( ) mean ending stats after level ability increases and tome usage.

A wisdom requirement of 22 for epic: drow would change the outcome of the build. With this type of requirement the Druid(6), Shifter(17), Rogue(17) loses blinding speed.
In epic: drow shape, the above's ability scores would look like:
STR: 12
DEX: 39
CON: 18
WIS: 22
INT: 12
CHA: 8
This might not look different on the stats but with the Wisdom requirement the build lost blinding speed; -2 ac, -1 ab and -1 apr.

Or if the designer wanted to have blinding speed then the ability stats might turn out like:

Druid(6), Shifter(17), Rogue(17), Ghostwise
STR: 8
DEX: 18 (25) (must take greater dex feat to obtain)
CON: 8
WIS: 16 (22) (Need to use a +2 tome)
INT: 12
CHA: 8

With Wisdom requirement the above would receive epic: drow shape and blinding speed, but sacraficed hps and str to do it.

In epic: drow shape the above design would have ability scores that of:

Druid(6), Shifter(17), Rogue(17), Ghostwise
STR: 8
DEX: 39
CON: 8
WIS: 22
INT: 12
CHA: 8

This version of an Epic: drow loses 2 to damage and 200 hps.

Adding a wisdom requirement would not invalidate existing shifter builds. Yes many would lose epic version of the shapes they built for, but would still be able to shift into the regular version. Though not as strong but still decent.

I hope this addresses concerns about shifters.

Again I am not seeking a change, just debating the suggested change.

[Rufio]

I don't understand what is wrong with RDD dragons. I can still build ones that are superior to Druid dragons, and there are still RDD dragons around that kick the crap out of me all the time.

One day people are going to realize that RDDs don't normally get to change into dragons, and they will be thankful.

[Rainswept]

You can go SD in some factions if you happen to be a good enough builder, and get 120 hide, or in TC you can go Druid/shifter and get a great hide build with 120+ hide, excellent XP and crazy high Dex. (tho the SD option in TC even comes with a hide bonus from jobs)

XP is irrelevant for a build. We make ridiculous ECL 3 "level to 10, delevel to 1, level to 40" type things because we want to maximize power. It's the price of doing business. In any case, I think we (TNC players) have sufficiently addressed the weaknesses of the drow shifter.

Ooops that was meant to read "excellent AC" my bad.

you have to have other factions' PrCs too. I think that's ridiculous and bad mannered, but that's just IMO also.

I laugh yet again that people jump on the AO/RK guys for building in other factions and using them, when it's been common practice for a very long time now. Why aren't you off insulting the SYNs?

oooh, right it's because you guys are really all one big faction, which is why the TSS tagged toons now defend Garagoth to keep the TC relic there.

[BlkMamba]

My thought, since everyone feels that they can build such uber stuff in RK
Quit talking and build it, use it against us, use our jobs against us, use our PrC and all our classes against us
Its part o the game, and guarenteed we wont care one bit, if you think RDD is so awesome
build one, raid RK with it, or AO if you feel like and visa versa i know i'll enjoy that fight
If you feel mages are so superior, build one, raid with it, or defend with it for all i care.

I'm going to make both a shifter and a CoT come this summer
will i use it against TC/NC, maybe, maybe not, thats my decision
either way, i know what i have to work with and when it comes down to it
Do shifters have weaknesses, sure they do, but not nearly as many as alot of builds out there
Most builds can be handled by a variety of different toons, some dont work so well others do
but fact is, shifters, and CoT's for that matter, take something almost made specificly to deal with them
and even then, arent very successful.

Nothing really more needs to be said one way or the other, yes, we will indeed make shifters and CoT's for that matter
If the TC/NC people feel that there balanced and they can kill them easy, then why worry about it, just kill us if we come with them
Turn around if fair play, do the same with us

Have fun people
thats what the games about
Mamba..

[cRaZy8or5e]

I laugh yet again that people jump on the AO/RK guys for building in other factions and using them, when it's been common practice for a very long time now. Why aren't you off insulting the SYNs?

Two questions:

1. Common practice in what way?

2. Are you actually implying that SyN was built to improve NC/TC raiding parties?

oooh, right it's because you guys are really all one big faction, which is why the TSS tagged toons now defend Garagoth to keep the TC relic there.

The one time that I've seen a TSS come to MA it was because he wanted to kill the renegade shifter there. If we didn't send the TSS on his way afterwards it was because we were out of time, but trust me when I say that the only reason he was allowed to stay was because his goals were aligned with ours.

Either way, TSS characters aren't built in order to aid MA. The "CoN's" were obviously built to aid AO/RK. If you ever, once attempted to defend TC with the "CoN's" then I'd say "Cool! Those guys aren't really renegade, lizard lovin, ale swilling, AO/RK wannabes." But the only times that I've seen them used is to raid NC and MA and drop their relics in AO/RK . So we all just shake our heads, and say to each other, 'oh well, we really can't expect anything less from those fellas. They've never shown us anything less when it comes to gameplay.'

I mean you guys like to imply that everyone is doing these sorts of things to you in order to justify your own actions. I don't know why, that justification never wokred in kindergarten so why try to use it now? But hey w/e, just own it. Yes everyone gets multifaction raided. It's the way the game is set up. Yes some of those players have multiple toons in multiple factions. And yes you will see other factions dropping relics to others. When this does happen though it's not because they want to level a character in that faction. In my experience it has always been, 'we can't defend the relic in our faction so you guys take it,' Or some facsimile/variation on that statement.

It's not the current, "all our stuff has been nerfed so we're goin to use toons from another faction to aid our original faction, with the hope that they get nerfed and the desire to upset other people." Well that's our speculation anyway cuz that's all we hear from the more vocal members of the AO/RK factions.

IF people were building TSS/FoN tagged toons in order to aid MA, then you might have a leg to stand on. BUT that isn't happening now, nor has it ever. As far as I know I don't know that it ever will. Who knows how things might change in the future though

In either case, every time something like this happens, there's the initial shock, then there's the adjustment period. Then it's just one more enjoyable pvp challenge.

My thought, since everyone feels that they can build such uber stuff in RK
Quit talking and build it, use it against us, use our jobs against us, use our PrC and all our classes against us

People are discussing just those things, though they're saying they'll do it to aid you, not use it against you. That is against the spirit of the game.

[Blystos Re]

So...if the AO/RK team is getting away with this it must be ok with the NS4 staff, right?

Sweet! I am SO building arcane casters and rogues for CLAD!

*scurries off to the CBC spreadsheet*

[frogofpeace]

I'm glad they finally nerfed Re's avatar - I don't have one, and I was tired of geting pwnd.

Ceterum autem censeo, NC esse donatum rogues! (cool show about Hannibal on the History Channel last weekend)

[Bargeld]

I like elda's idea. I'd be curious to approach it from the other direction and see what the most uber druid/shifter would be like. That is the true test.

As far as the MA defense thing and the Syns helping NC/TC... Crazy is right, a solo enemy toon is VERY rarely allowed to help 'defend' MA or SL. And usually it's not really defense so much as just allowing them to PvP. You will rarely find them near a cradle actually defending (besides they get attacked by factional guards and epics, making it just that much more annoying). When Syns first appeared, they didn't party with anyone for raid or defense, but as time went on, they ended up aiding SL/MA, as those are the aligned sister factions. I consider this just the way the game goes as they are looking for some fun and I like to think our teams are fun to play with for them. I truly believe still that there is an exceptional line drawn between the Syns and their NC/TC counterparts, and I have to commend those players for keeping that line very distinct.

I notice the shift in discussion that is taking place and see a lot more of the sentiment: 'everyone else plays cross faction and that is fair... don't like it, then do it yourself too'. That is utter BS. It makes me just think higher of the teams who actually have some level of commitment to their factions and RP Deities. As far as SL/MA... we don't chug in combat, we fight against insane odds and keep fighting, and now it seems that staying within our factional boundaries can be added to the list of 'honorable' things we do. Not everyone on this server is here to outright win. We are here to have fun and we like to think that the server itself has some semblance of a code of ethics that we all adhere to. I may be speaking out of place, as much has occurred before my time here, but this seems to be the problem that the MDs had previously. Once the majority loses sight of this code of ethics, then the factional boundaries fall to pieces and balance gets lost entirely. I would like to see balance this restored rather than torn down further. If DM/Dev intervention needs to be considered, then so be it.

Now that I reread a bit more, I would say that this all stems from the core AO/RK team being displaced from LA and not having any sense of pride in their current factions. You rarely see them shout, post, or RP at all (with a few players that are the minor exception, all from RK). This furthers my sentiment of their goal being 'to win' and nothing more.

On another note, I noticed this weekend that the 'new improved Con Moi' - Conabus, has better/same hide as previously, but can now spot a 100+ hider. Just curious if that top tier SD that was being tossed around before had the feats/skills available for this and whether they are still comparable. And yes Crazy, Conabus raided TC this weekend.