Epic Mage Armor nerf........

[Chernobyl_Glow]

Edit : Woot 8 PageS!! Wow have we accomplished something.

Burra, if a mage shouldnt have more than 70 ac then neither should anything else. period. If everything has to have a chance of getting hit then that means everything.

...

Scaling does not make sense to me either. It simply kills the creative builds that could benefit from it. I still claim that having High AC is NOt a crime! And Frog mentioned in another post that his "generic" bard has 85 AC. Tep's PM has 100.

How come these AO Monk/Sorcs are being targetted? Is it just simply not fair in your opinion for us to build with high AC? I say this once again targetted at AO because it clearly wasn't meant to address the PM issue because it was miniscule. Plus they'll just gain half of it back by equipping a shield.

Mage armor has nothing to do with Bards so this did nothing to hamper other high AC builds.

This was not at all targetted at the few tensor's builds that are out there. This however did absolutely crush the few that did exist. No hope of playablility. These were not at all overpowered. I don't think I ever won a 2v1. Not too many 1v1.

This was clearly driven at reducing the effectiveness of the Sorc/Monks of AO. And to that I question WHY? High AC is obviously not an issue on other builds why on ours. Are Bards and PM's the only ones allowed to have high AC? Didn't think it was over powered before.

Scaling could be useful but not as its listed above. Pure casters still aren't going to be tempted at +12. For the other builds it is pretty much just as bad as the nerf. Scaling would need to be something like +8 to +20. Kind of exponetial. Where you get big bonuses late.

20 = +8 : If you get just enough levels to qualify then you get just a smidge more than a shield would give.
21 = +8
22 = +8
23 = +9
24 = +9
25 = +9 (this would be the max for Sorc/Monk/10RDD)
26 = +10
27 = +10
28 = +11 (at 28 you can't get monk or rog combo and epic dodge)
29 = +11
30 = +11
31 = +12 (can't have two post epic classes)
32 = +12
33 = +13
34 = +13
35 = +14
36 = +15 (can't mix with monk/ paly or any prc class. and cannot top skills in epic levels)
37 = +16
38 = +17
39 = +18 (just one other class giving up party friendly hellball)
40 = +20 (stay pure get something really worth a darn)

To regain 1 point of AC I'll have to add a 1 tome. By that "shaky" logic the reduction of 6 AC was like stripping 6 books off my builds. That's a lot if you put it in that perspective.

- Glow -

[cRaZy8or5e]

Edit : Woot 8 PageS!! Wow have we accomplished something.

Burra, if a mage shouldnt have more than 70 ac then neither should anything else. period. If everything has to have a chance of getting hit then that means everything.
- Glow -

The point is glow that mages should and CAN rely on their spells to protect them without ever resorting to building for high AC. That's why its a "crime" for mages to have high AC, they already don't need it.

[arvut]

However, the mage armor and such spells are there to protect from summons and other nasties that dont cast spells. So yes, they need it.

What should really be discussed is the whole monk/mage deal. The only few monks that actually practice magic are from my knowledge a group of assassins for either shar or cyric (cant remember). There are possibly other monasteries aswell that work with the weave or shadow weave, but those are and should be a very limited few. This however is a completly different subject so we should not discuss it here.

About the magearmor then.... Perhaps adding some kind of magic resistance or immunity to it? Like a % of magical dmg immunity scaled with casterlvl? Or a immunity to certain spells, like the visages and the shield spell does? After all, it is there to protect the caster from physical hits, and since magic missiles and such are more or less physical (force damage) then that would make sense to me...

Another idea would be to make it less effective for palemasters by reducing the ac gained when its casted by a PM. And then making it better for real mages that doesnt dedicate their studies to summons and being semi-undead. Ofcourse, a purer mage should benefit the most from this while a spellsword, spellfist or spellbow/AA should be in the same category as palemasters (since they dedicate their life to other things than magic.

Also, it should be conjuration and not necromancy if that havent been changed alrdy. Dont know if it makes any sense, but perhaps focus in the certain school could make it stronger with some more scripting?

That's a few wicked ideas that im sure some of you will strongly dislike But hey! those are just suggestions anyway

[Bargeld]

I'm not sure how the tensor builds havent been a major focus yet. Sorc monk bg is available in a number of factions. Theres only a few decent combos of it, and they are centered around high AC and low to middle-ish AB. The casting abilities are pretty strong, but only on non-DC and non-SR spells... mostly buffs and dispels. With 2 clicks you can go from 48 AC in robes with monk AC to 73 AC with EMA and div shield. 1 more round and you got haste and tensors. It's a 'spellsword' build.

But to say it's not a valid combo is outragious. Granted, its already been admitted that its a headache for the devs whenever you mix monk with anything. Given all the pros and cons that it had before the EMA nerf, i think it was all working out just fine. It required a ton of buff upkeep and you were always 2 rounds from dying because something is about to wear off.

[Bargeld]

Oh yeah and I have a DR based melee PM as well. And considering it from that combo, the saves are just plain horrid. Thats the penalty for being crit immune. At least thats basically what it boils down to me.

I've been trying to make an arcane warrior in a number of incarnations, and they always seem to get hit with the nerf hammer, whether its changing the weapons on the shapechange forms or changing their stats or changing tensors, and then warding, now EMA.

I understand it is a dilemna and that if there was an ez answer, it'd be done and over by now. But from the player's standpoint, it's a rollercoaster!

[arvut]

I'm not sure how the tensor builds havent been a major focus yet. Sorc monk bg is available in a number of factions. Theres only a few decent combos of it, and they are centered around high AC and low to middle-ish AB. The casting abilities are pretty strong, but only on non-DC and non-SR spells... mostly buffs and dispels. With 2 clicks you can go from 48 AC in robes with monk AC to 73 AC with EMA and div shield. 1 more round and you got haste and tensors. It's a 'spellsword' build.....

...or spellfist, since it can use monk gloves to deal amazing dmg (and if this havent changed, then weaponfocus unarmed adds to the touch attack spells ab aswell).

But lets start a new topic and discuss this monk deal there, no need to go offtopic too much..

Spellswords are from my experience (iv got 3 of them, 2 are rebuilds of the 3rd, which is a lvl 34 wiz fgt wm) very weak. Sure, Nadriand can deal the dmg of a wm, buff like a mage and cast one or two good offensive spells. But his ac is at minimum, he has to use whirlwind attack to avoid becomming flatfooted, and he is very easily dispellable. I love playing him and the remakes will be alot better since i made some fatal mistakes while lvling him (thinking that some spells would work abit differently than they do in ns4). I was actually planing on taking both epic warding and epic magearmor, but since I've found a +6 shield and realized the epic warding wont be much better than my premonition then that has been changed in my buildplan.

This is my example of a spellsword build which is awesome in the rest of nwn while it more or less competes with a build 10 lvls below him in ns4. due to the fact that some really good saveless spells and epic spells has been nerfed alot (once again because of a good reason or two).

[mining monk]

Because a mage shouldnt have more than 70 ac...

Part 0

Abjurant Armor (Su): Any time you cast an abjuration
spell (including mage armor) that grants you an armor bonus or shield bonus to AC,
you can increase the value of the bonus by your abjurant
champion class level. Abjurant champions rely on mage armor,
shield, and similar spells instead of actual armor

Part 1.

Class Features: At each level except 1st and 7th,
you gain class features and an increase in effective
level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which
you belonged before adding the prestige class level.
The specific class features you gain include spells
per day (and spells known, if applicable), improved
chance of turning or destroying undead, metamagic
or item creation feats, bonus feats, monk special abilities,
sneak attack progressions, and so on, depending
on the class. You do not, however, gain the benefit of
your previous class’s Hit Dice, attack progression,
skill points, or saving throws. If you had more than
one class before becoming a legacy champion, you
must decide to which class to add each level for the
purpose of determining class abilities.

Part 2:

Build:

4 fighter, 2 wizard, 5 Abjurant Champion, 10 Legacy Champion

= BAB 17

Spells up to 8th level. Could get higher, at cost to AC.
Caster level of 17.

Abjurant Champion level = 13. shield and MA give 4 base AC, = 17 AC each. Thats 44 base AC. Assuming you Alter Self into a form with +7 Nat. Armor (as everyone does), have maxed dex and only 17 intelligence, you have over 60 AC. Without boots, (+X, say +5) haste (+4) or deflection AC bonuses on cloaks etc. (+X, say +5)

Total AC at level 20 with a great spellsword, not optimized at all: 17MA+17S+10Eq+10B+4H+7NAB+(20 base dex, + 4 cats grace = 24) +7 = 72.
AB will be comfortably high, 17 + 7 + 5 + other stuff, all as a touch attack due to Persisted Wraithstrike:

WRAITHSTRIKE
Transmutation
Level: Assassin 3, sorcerer/wizard 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round
By presenting your weapon with an overly
dramatic fl ourish and calling out with a
sickly-sounding moan, you complete the
spell. As you do so, your weapon becomes
translucent almost to the point that you
cannot see it, though it still weighs as heavily
in your hand.
While this spell is in effect, your melee
attacks are resolved as melee touch attacks
rather than normal melee attacks.

and thus can be

BenefitA persistent spell has a duration of 24 hours. The persistent spell must have a personal range or a fixed range. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You need not concentrate on spells such as detect magic or detect thoughts to be aware of the mere presence or absence of the things detected, but you must still concentrate to gain additional information as normal. Concentration on such a spell is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

Oh, and to cheese it up even more:

Over the course of his career, a character with a bloodline becomes more powerful than one without a bloodline. Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn’t truely reflect this difference. Instead, a bloodline character must take one or more levels of “bloodline.” Class levels of “bloodline” do not increase a character’s character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below). ...

...

...

Include the character’s bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn’t gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

For example, a 2nd-level sorcerer with a major bloodline takes a bloodline level when earns enough XP to advance in level. He is treated as a 3rd-level spellcaster for the purpose of spell durations, caster level checks, and so forth. But he doesn’t gain a 3rd-level sorcerer’s spells per day or spells known.

These aren't included, but as you can have 3 bloodline bonuses, he technically can have 76 AC at level 20.

Uber. At level 22 it gets the joy that are 9th level spells. It could get them earlier, but I wanted to show 70 AC, by LEVEL 20.

[Rufio]

Whoa, this isn't a PnP DnD board. (not to mention there are so many incorrect things there.)

[arvut]

Ehrm... should have mentioned "within the nwn and ns4 ruleset". I know there are a bunch of lovely things you can add with haks, such as more PrC's or spells for better spellsword builds. but that doesnt change the fact that the image i have of a Pale Master is a robed semi-undead necromancer who has better natural ac and a bunch of nasty undead thingys. the fact that auto stillspell makes it possible to build the most defensive spellsword in ns4 and that you dont see many PMs in robes anyway is quite odd imo... But then again, NS4 is all about powergaming and building the most epic charbuild possible so I guess we cant really change that.

[mining monk]

Whoa, this isn't a PnP DnD board. (not to mention there are so many incorrect things there.)

You're right. Its not.
But, if you wish to compare the "Ludicrous ACs Mages are attaining" to anything comparable, there it is. In DnD you cannot take monk at level 40 and at level 20 unless its pure. You don't get to abuse tumble. You can actually deal AoE duration 20d6 + will save or stun spells to an area. That is why you can aviod having defences in DnD.
I've seen people refer to PnP numerous times on these board before for various reasons.
Secondly, while the build IS slightly broken, it is merely broken because of the fact I only put 5 minutes worth of work into it.

[Amoenotep]

when you bring up pnp D&D when we are talking mages...i just say "grapple wizard" and the conversation ends.

if i could make a half ogre grapple wizard on ns4 this mod would be over and no one would play anymore....except for lokey, cuz he'd laugh

[Lokey]

Then when grapple wizard hit epic, he'd take epic spellcasting and craft a +50 spellcraft item. Make an epic spell to permanently summon something with caster levels, throw that 3 or 4 times per day. Hello ritual magic and epic spell craft dc mitigation, give him a week and he'll craft an end the world no save spell

Abjurant whatever build: spell casting of a 15th? (Unfamiliar with Legacy Champ) It's not going to have insane touch ac from the abjurant stuff, dungeon door (grapple escape, doesn't need either vocal or somatic I forget), and other general arcane nastiness. An incantrix could probably no save eat 400 damage twice to him (you're immune to damage type = 1/2) even in an anti-magic field...though the orb spell need touch attacks too (10 + dex which is mage's second priority + well, anti-magic field because abj champ is in trouble without those buffs). Anyway there's lots of ways to build gishes...

Grapple wizard still wins for just being insane

[mining monk]

Then when grapple wizard hit epic, he'd take epic spellcasting and craft a +50 spellcraft item. Make an epic spell to permanently summon something with caster levels, throw that 3 or 4 times per day. Hello ritual magic and epic spell craft dc mitigation, give him a week and he'll craft an end the world no save spell

Abjurant whatever build: spell casting of a 15th? (Unfamiliar with Legacy Champ) It's going to have high touch ac, dungeon door (grapple escape, doesn't need either vocal or somatic I forget), and other general arcane nastiness. An incantrix could probably no save eat 400 damage twice to him (you're immune to damage type = 1/2) even in an anti-magic field...though the orb spell need touch attacks too (10 + dex which is mage's second priority + well, anti-magic field because abj champ is in trouble without those buffs). Anyway there's lots of ways to build gishes...

Grapple wizard still wins for just being insane

Epic spellwise, noone can beat the stupid power of ESing. Mystic theurge Arcane heirophant builds are particularly ludicrous, especially with the bonus epic spells from Knowledge: Nature

Ahh, the joy of talking to those who aren't gibbering idiots on a NWN board . The point isn't that its goona WTFown, the point is that its getting a ludicrous AC and decent BAB. If you wish to talk about incantrixes why not just, say, gate in a solar, have it wish in another one etc. After the 500th solar (You did have a slowtime plane, right?) the game is up. Hell, stick on an AMF as well, they're gated not summoned.

Legacy champ advances all class features of every class 8/10. So Hellfire warlocks (with their +2d6 blast damage per level) Often have 11 effective levels in it for 22d6 bonus blast at the cost of 1 con each blast.

Sorry for being so many miles off topic .

Anyway, grappling mage = win. Celerity Dire Tortoise shifted mage with TimeStop, gate, a private plane with slowtime, Gate, planeshift, gate, a way of storing enough XP for that 1st gate, gate, did I mention gate? = 10000000 Solars WTFPWNAGE. It really depends how much stuff you want to gate. gate? I got that banned in the first campaign. Healing strike? 1/2way through the second. All of the books except SRD? I think that was the 3rd campaign. Just banned for me BTW. I needed the DMs express permision to use the Malconvoker (He thought it was weak), but I broke that too. Everyone else was playing Incantrixes or CoDzillas. I was playing god.

I normally wouldn't break stuff like that BTW, but the DM was being an arrogant little... Anyway, I was playing a wizard that mostly buffed my team mates, but he kept trying to kill me off with CR unapproiate encounters. I had gate on my spell list, but I cast Mass Hold, foresight (On the party clutz) and buffs. The only time I used gate was to have one (a solar) wish me a wand of resurrecting (5 uses, damn my DM) so I wouldn't need to expend XP to resurrect someone.
Once, in a completely level INapproriate encounter ( level 10, but capable of taking around level 13 unoptimised builds, due to our optimiziation) He immediately sent the tarrasque against me. This being at level 10. I was at 1 HP when my contingency triggered (DM house rule...) and I used a wand of time stop (1/2 my WBL, even though it was single use... DM hates me, Other guy bought another one for me and it cost him 1/100th his WBL...)

Sorry for that rant, just making sure that I'm know as the resident loony (if theres already one have him ready the hats.)

\Again, sorry for OT.

Slightly more on topic, EMA seems balanced. Just ensure that a build optimised for AC can be neutralised through some means. Cough Saves Cough.

[Lokey]

Alright, come up with a number that's good for mostly pure mage and whatever can be shoveled onto it by a non-monk, non-PrC class. Off top of my head: 6 armor, 15 deflect + dodge + natural, 7 dex, 4 tumble, 10 base, 1 from haste. That's 43, EMA at 12 = 55. Could go with the full 20 to 63 (67 if gith), little higher with more dex. Perhaps use the higher of int/cha modifier as a base number.

From that number subtract
- Tumble ac from more than 20 tumble
- Class bonuses from monk (1 per 5) and RDD (4 for first 10, 1 per 5 after). Wis ac from monk = problematical.
- PM: A portion of the ac...not sure how much.
- Would not mix with divine shield (would remove/smother if that were active/used).
- Would not mix with a shield. Remove on equip of shield, cancel if a shield is held (this is trickier than polymorph to handle).
- Flavor as Epic Shield and give immunity to the force missile line of spells?

Where would we stand then?

[Alkapwn]

I'm still not seeing what the problem is as it stands now.
The +12 seems to work out fine all around. sure there's a couple sorcs around with crazy AC. If anything just switch it to +12 Dodge AC (technically the worst ac you can get and the most easiest to get from buffs and the most easiest to lose in combat).
Just because it says 70 or 80 ish numbers on sheet doesnt mean that any caster has even close to that when casting. Countering yes but not casting.
I havent had any problems taking down EMA builds since the +12 shield went in . And gave mages a fighting chance in Epic areas. I Seriously think it should stay as is. Unless someone can tell me a good reason why not......