More Assassin ideas...

[LinuxPup]

Uhhh no... Dragons are powerful enough as it is. Assassins are pretty lame right now. <Sarcasm>While we're at it, lets renable Dev. Crit. and give MA Barbarians.</Sarcasm>

One thing Bioware did right was make it so the person has to not only be flat-footed, but essentially unaware of the Assassin... even if the person is flat-footed, but was just in combat and has not yet calmed down, a death attack is just a sneak attack.

So, even after combat... for a few seconds the target is immune to the paralysis effect of a Death Attack... until the rest icon becomes available again.

Multiple Death Attacks a day make good sense if the target is both flat-footed and not in combat.

[disastro]

True, let me rephrase that, let Dragon monks be allowed. Giving an assassin unlimited death attacks makes no since. They are trained killers that shouldn't need more than one opportunity to disable their target.

(I'm aware a page back I suggested hips but I see the err in that now.)

if i recall correctly they play tested dragon monk shifters and they were too uber to balance (without making stuff that would demolish all other builds).

unlimited death attacks for assassins only makes sense... it's what they do (all they do?). it would be like limiting the number of critical hits a weapon master could drop.

unfortunately the way death attack is coded it pretty much requires hips to be useful. not sure if they can server side recode death attack without requiring a hak.

[Lorkar1]

True, let me rephrase that, let Dragon monks be allowed. Giving an assassin unlimited death attacks makes no since. They are trained killers that shouldn't need more than one opportunity to disable their target.
(I'm aware a page back I suggested hips but I see the err in that now.)

Unless the Assassin is dealing with more than one opponent.

[Dynmi]

It is not in the nature of an assassin to attack an army, and unlimited death attacks makes no since, unless that assassin is so bad he can't do his job correctly.

[Go'f]

Your all going to go back and forth with totaly different ideas about assassins until you can agree on a definition of Assassin.

All the ideas presented are good, but all from different opinions of what an assassin is and is not *shakes head* does no one else see that is what is the biggest challange... define the primary role of the assassin the abilities will create themselves after that.

[LinuxPup]

I think its generally understood what an Assassins role is... to assasinate in a discrete, sneaky manner. That's how the whole class is designed around.

Perhaps give the Assassin HiPS somehow... whether using leto (if that's possible), multi-classing with a SD, or whatever other possible methods...

..but put a delay of a few seconds before the Assassin can hide again... kind of like the taunt delay. So they can HiPS, but not as well as a regular Shadowdancer... they need time before they can hide again.

And perhaps the delay decreases as they gain Assassin levels...maybe by Assassin level 30, the delay is removed entirely and they can HiPS as well as a full Shadowdancer.

[MLoki]

If you use Hide correctly you don't even need HiPS. Before a combat starts and out of view of other creatures you can still toggle the Stealth bar and sneak up on somebody to Death Attack them. This is not HiPS and Assassins should not get HiPS. Use the tools your class has given you and perhaps if the Devs add a little bonus then they will end up being quite powerfull with the right build.

MLoki

[Go'f]

Not a good enough definition sorry... you cant use a word to define the word itself

an assassins role is to assassinate is not good arguement mate

A part of defining assassin should be to define how it differs from each of the other classes otherwise just delete the class.

The problem with the assassin in this situation is they are in many peoples minds Assassin means 'instant kill'... in a world where most of the instant kill stuff has been disabled, I dont think the traditional Assassin fits in with flavour of the rules already implemented...

OK here is an idea that just occured to me... what if they are made to be more like the ninja base class...

Can Monk AC, speed, and unarmed attacks (but not base damage) be added to the class for a unique take on stealth kill... hehe that works for me as a nice new and unique definition... Monks with mega Sneak Damage


Or there is a quicker fix for the SL prC sucking badly switch out assassin for Shadow Dancer in the unique PrC possitioning

[watchwood]

Or if all that really bugs you so much, why not make a Monk/Rogue/SD? Problem solved.

[Go'f]

Or if all that really bugs you so much, why not make a Monk/Rogue/SD? Problem solved.

hehe I did it was fun, but very weak

Actualy the point of the subject (unless I am mistaken) is what would be the minimum requirement to make Assassin a fun class to play in this fantastic place.

[LinuxPup]

Yeah, Assassins are all about "instant kills"... hence Death Attack(tm), not sneak attack. You used to be SL, but you obviously haven't played many Assassins... its the hardest class to play by far... well except for an Intelligence based Sorcerer.

And you say "ninja based"... well a lot of Ninjas are assassins so that doesn't mean much. Monk speed and sneak damage? You mean generic build no. 4354? Every faction except MA can do that... not much uniqueness to it.

However, I'm not against making Shadowdancer SL's unique prestige class... although I'd rather see HiPSing Assassins.

Also, perhaps change Assassin's Improved Invisibility spell feat to Invisibility + a long term displacement of 50% concealment... might sound the same, but displacement isn't vulnerable to purge invisibility.

Anyway, I think enough great ideas have been posted in this thread to make Assassins really fun and powerful.

[Dynmi]

Aye all these ideas are good, I especially like the HIPS with a cool down time think that may work, though before my opinion really matters I'd have to make an assassin.

[Go'f]

Yeah, Assassins are all about "instant kills"... hence Death Attack(tm), not sneak attack. You used to be SL, but you obviously haven't played many Assassins... its the hardest class to play by far...

Yup I was Shadow Legion for 18 months, we always seemed to get placed at the back of the queues for extra bonus stuff because we had great cohesion and owned the place most of the time our needs were second to the under populated places that needed to entice others... I think it went to far the other way and the place has become somewhat of a void... no insult intended to my friends in the underdark.

I could never come up with an Assassin build that could not be made better by dropping the assassin class from the formula... for all the reasons already talked about.

Maybe I am over reacting and all that is needed is for Shadow Legion jobs that have been in development for ages to be released with the amazing synergies to the Assassin Class so as to boost the appeal.

[Aarkon Draco]

i support the timed HIPS idea tho i would vote to make it more inline with 3.5 rules and give the ability to assassins of 8th level or higher maybe a reduction of the cool down time with more levels IE

level 8 Assassin has HIPS with a 30 second cool down

at level 10 its reduced to 25 seconds
at 12 its 20
at 14 its 15
at 16 its 10
at 18 its at its max at 5 seconds per HIPS

[Sparky]

Just to chime in to help focus your suggestions:

Death Attack is indeed Hardcoded, nothing really we can do to it without a Hak.

The Stealth function is also hardcoded, so we can't add a delay saddly. That was one of the first things the Dev staff looked into many years ago to try and make HIPS less cheesy.

Also, HIPS for Assassin's will never happen, its been brought up in public and even championed behind closed doors, and its for naught.

So, where that leaves suggestions would be:
1. Creating Token which give new or varied abilities.
examples: a. Adding a Token which simulates a PnP Assassin's Spell List.
(Giving spells like True Strike, Foxes Cunning, ect.. a few
times a day.)
b. Changing a Bolt attack to something suited for an Assassin.
c. Granting a Token which gives Etherealness(3 round
version of original Bioware Greater Sanc. An ability like this
will see action with some class eventually) x times a day.

2. Changing existing granted abilities for Assassins. Of this realm, Death Attack and any changes specifically to the Stealth function wouldn't be possible, but Assassin's are granted three spells as they level which could be changed to something useful.

Of the two types of possible suggestions, suggestion category 1 requires a lot more coding than category 2. Something to keep in mind if you wish to persuade the Dev staff to throw their time towards Assassins. (Trust me, we've been down this road for a long time, just have patience.)