Revamping classes

MLoki · Post by **MLoki** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:52 pm

I figured I would start this thread since we already have an Assassin thread a CoT thread and a PM thread. Let's put them all together and figure out how to balance some classes since the Devs seem to be working on this topic at the moment.

I am sure this is not a high priority on thier list but have you ever seen an epic RDD? Probably not since they only gain increased breath weapon after 10th level. Perhaps adding something to thier epic levels may encourage people to play them past 10th.

Straight class Druids need some serious attention. Sure you can add Monk for AC or become a shifter for shapechange ability but if you have ever tried to keep a Druid pure they end up getting the beat down in the planes. The only real protection they have is defeated in the planes by +5 Weapons. Perhaps giving them the ability to resist more damage or allowing them to summon an epic animal companion if they stay pure may help this. Also as it stands right now Shapechanging means insta death for an epic druid with no other classes.

Rangers are another class you won't see as pure class. They usually never exist past 9 or 10 levels for the most part. Occasionally you may see one going for an epic feat but most often they will multi-class for effectiveness. Once again they may be helped out as easily as giving straight Rangers the use of thier Animal Companion.

In fact this may be an easy add on for Mages and Sorcerers as well. If you decide to stay straight class then you get your Familiar. It seems a fair trade off and it's fairly easy to implement.

Other classes and suggestions are welcome here. I know thier is a thread similiar to this somewhere but I am bringing it back to here.

MLoki

blay · Post by **blay** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:09 pm

I certainly agree, especially on the pure Druid front. I have a lvl 28 Druid who almost seems worthless unless in a party. Granted, only lvl 28 and yes, "then find a party and stop whining", but it's not always easy to find a party in that lvl range.

Post by **Binkyuk** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:38 pm

my level 28 pure druid is just fine. he has Dragonshape and can summon a solar and was stoneholding amazon lancers with 25% chance. admittedly he can't solo in the planes but he pulls his weight with the rest.
Though yes losing his DR buffs to planar weaponry is a major problem.

CrazyJ · Post by **CrazyJ** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:51 pm

I am sure this is not a high priority on thier list but have you ever seen an epic RDD? Probably not since they only gain increased breath weapon after 10th level. Perhaps adding something to thier epic levels may encourage people to play them past 10th.

Their armor skin also gets better. There's at least one dexer bard/rdd out there who's taking advantage of this.

Also as it stands right now Shapechanging means insta death for an epic druid with no other classes.

1) Elemental shapes are stinky.
2) Epic druids do have dragonshape, which is pretty good.

Rangers are another class you won't see as pure class. They usually never exist past 9 or 10 levels for the most part. Occasionally you may see one going for an epic feat but most often they will multi-class for effectiveness. Once again they may be helped out as easily as giving straight Rangers the use of thier Animal Companion.

I believe companions are in the works... and pure-class bonuses are coming for Rangers.

Myrdyr · Post by **Myrdyr** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:16 pm

Basically, Rangers suck (second only to the lowly Harper). Barbarians are much better but still really need some help. Paladins, Rogues, Arcane Archers, and Assassins could also use some help too.

How playable I find the different classes in NS4:

Barbarian: Poor - Good ab, some damage reduction and special abilities, just not nearly as good as other classes. Best to multiclass. A small number of levels are useful for the speed and uncanny dodge, especially in dex builds (with Bard, AA, Ranger).

Bard: Good - Nice special abilities, ok spells, good skills, access to PM and RDD classes, bardsong changes help. Not a class meant for pure builds though.

Cleric: Very good.

Druid: Good - OK special abilities, ok spells, ok skills, access to Shifter class. All the work by the NS4 team have made druids very playable. Of course, a bit of multiclassing can really improve them.

Fighter: Good - Good ab, access to lots of feats, good for multiclassing for feats and ab.

Monk: Good - OK ab, good ac, good skills, great saves, nice special abilities including spell resistance. Good for multiclassing too.

Paladin: OK - Good ab, ok spells, nice special abilities. The downside is that most of the paladins strengths don't scale enough with levels, so they're much better to multiclass.

Ranger: Poor - The only class remotely as bad is the Harper. Good ab, ok skills, poor spells, ok special abilities. The rangers abilities don't scale nearly enough with levels so they're much better off multiclassing, usually with two other classes.

Rogue: OK - Very good skills, special abilities and feats, but the low ab and dependency on sneak attacks severly limits them at high levels. Best to multiclass them.

Sorcerer, Wizard: Very Good.

A Archer: OK - Highest ab, poor damage. Not a soloing class.

Assassin: OK - Like rogues, it's the skills, but rogues have more. Some good special abilities.

Blackguard: Good - Good ab, ok special abilities, great summons.

Champ of Torm: Good - Good ab, save bonuses, ok special abilities.

Dwarven Defender: Good - Good ab, good special abilities, great damage reduction.

Harper: Poor. By far the worst. Can it still be used to cheese 2 Great Charisma or Great Dexterity feats?

Pale Master: Very Good.

Red Dragon Disc: Very Good.

Shadowdancer: Good - HiPS is extremely powerful at low levels. Good skills and special abilities too. Because they usually have low damage other than sneaks, they can become frustrating to play at high levels.

Shifter: Good - Great special abilities, buggy.

Weapon Master: Very Good.

Alkapwn · Post by **Alkapwn** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:03 pm

Rangers definitely need some attention.
I'd love to make one but the constant pwnage on it would be to much to bear.
:evil:

Blystos Re · Post by **Blystos Re** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:07 pm

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:31 pm

pure class bonuses to make them more competitive are already in the works. once they get them fine tuned enough to make them not indestructible you will start seeing them.

Kirg · Post by **Kirg** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:29 am

Myrdyr, you forgot Harper Scout. Although we all know what good this class is for. 5 lvls max. and the boni aren't that good to forfeit another class for it. Although I will build one. Maybe Qilué will take 5 lvls of it

.

Myrdyr · Post by **Myrdyr** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:57 am

Kirg wrote:Myrdyr, you forgot Harper Scout. Although we all know what good this class is for. 5 lvls max. and the boni aren't that good to forfeit another class for it. Although I will build one. Maybe Qilué will take 5 lvls of it .

Harper's there as a late addition. I never could get 2 greater dex feats with it, but supposedly there's a way. 2 greater chr feats at the cost of 2 pre-epic feats and some skills can be tempting...

Post by **Sparky** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:03 am

Take Harper Scout when you're epic, and you can take Great Dex or Great Cha instead of a Favored Enemy at Harper Levels 1 and 5.

PeregrineV · Post by **PeregrineV** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:51 am

Can pure class bonuses be tied to feat and/or skill prerequsistes?

For example, if a cleric has epic focus in 3 of the spell schools, can that be used to provide one sort of pure class bonus, where someone with the melee feats (disarm, called shot, etc) may get a different sort of pure class bonus.

kgb · Post by **kgb** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:59 pm

Hi

I have a question on the Harper Scout (omg give the man a drink!) - I found this post on another site regarding the stacking of cats grace because one is a buff from a spell while the Harpers is from an ability. Does this work the same here on NS4?

Look at AlinGreg post there:
http://www.thyle.net/chronisverse/cgi-b ... 1104266828

Thanks

Post by **Amoenotep** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:44 am

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:47 am

The problem with Druids is that their spells require saving throws, they don't have an IGMS or anything like that. Not to mention the cheestastic boring immunities that are given to a lot of the mobs. It would be fine if these immunities were from buffs that could be dispelled/breached some how, but the permanent immunities just plain suck and really go against the idea I had be given as to what Ns4 would be like when we were all still playing NS3. Seems that only lasts for the first 20 levels of play.

Using massive HP on mobs to balance them is boring as hell, or just not done properly. Would be nice to see a drop in HP and a boost in AC to help balance out how useful a caster and a melee are. Or, a drop in mob saves and removal of their permanent immunities in exchange for dispellable buffs.

Players need to be a little more creative too. Sure my sorc's direct dmg spells may not be able to make much of a dent in the 5000HP on an Epic Dwarf. However, I could go into counter-spell mode and prevent that dwarf from casting heal and healing back 15000HP over 3 heals. (Then again I haven't exactly tried that lately... Wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't possible)