[quote="TheBestDeception"]However, I must ask drakebrimstone if he ever fought a Dragon on NS4. My guess is no, as you somehow think it is easy to crit one.[quote]
No, I havn't in NS4, are you suggesting that there is something special with dragons in NS4? If the base dragons used for the shape shifting have been altered then that may very well be the problem (Is that even possable?)
I also never said you could do it without assistance, a nice True Strike comes in realy handy. (Remember, the +20 from the True Strike DOES count in the Crit roll too!) Between all the different attack bonuses one can rack up with levels, feats and spells you CAN achieve a hit on a dragon even at AC 78.
Talk of Balance and dragons.
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DrakhanValane
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level 40 Fighter/WM (28-30 levels WM):
30 BAB
+7 AB with WoC
+4 AB from other feats
Base STR 20 (Half-Orc)+10 via levels+6 via Great STR+12 via items/buffs =48: +19 AB (RDD might do better on this but sacrifices attacks and/or WM bonus)
+4 AB from weapon.
Total: 64 before other buffs. I miss anything? Looks kinda hard to reliably hit that 78 AC.
30 BAB
+7 AB with WoC
+4 AB from other feats
Base STR 20 (Half-Orc)+10 via levels+6 via Great STR+12 via items/buffs =48: +19 AB (RDD might do better on this but sacrifices attacks and/or WM bonus)
+4 AB from weapon.
Total: 64 before other buffs. I miss anything? Looks kinda hard to reliably hit that 78 AC.
If you tilt your head far enough and squint hard enough, anything becomes as simple or complex as you'd like--regardless of whether it is or not. -- A lesson learned from Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science
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TheBestDeception
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drakebrimstone wrote:No, I havn't in NS4, are you suggesting that there is something special with dragons in NS4? If the base dragons used for the shape shifting have been altered then that may very well be the problem (Is that even possable?)
The dragons in NS4 were not changed; however, the weapons are not what your other servers likely had. NS4 does not use high/uber items. +3 enhancements and +5 ability are about as good as it gets. This doesn't help much in hitting dragons, which have the highest AC (by far!) I have yet to see in NS4.
Also, Dragon skin as upgraded by Bioware is now 40/+6, which allows them to shrug off most non-critical physical dmg that comes from melee. When the hit does occur (1 in 20), it rarely does double-digit dmg.
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drakebrimstone
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DrakhanValane wrote:Total: 64 before other buffs. I miss anything? Looks kinda hard to reliably hit that 78 AC.
Realy? 78-64 = 14, so you hit on a 14+, or even a 19+ for your second swing. Also, depending on the Dragon's alignment and the Faction/Job of the Fighter there can be an additional bonus right there! Just adding the True Strike praticly garentees a hit. Of course, this build has a very major drawback, Will and Ref saves are realy going to suck, and Fort won't be the best either.
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TheBestDeception
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drakebrimstone wrote:Realy? 78-64 = 14, so you hit on a 14+, or even a 19+ for your second swing. Also, depending on the Dragon's alignment and the Faction/Job of the Fighter there can be an additional bonus right there! Just adding the True Strike praticly garentees a hit. Of course, this build has a very major drawback, Will and Ref saves are realy going to suck, and Fort won't be the best either.
You have 4 attacks: 63/58/53/48 (subtracted 1 for the lack of +4 weapons in NS4). For the first swing, you must roll 15-20 to hit, meaning 6/20 = 30%. After that, you have a 5% hit chance for the last 3. This means that in a round, you have less than a 50% chance to even hit once. Reliability? I think not.
Meanwhile, the dragon has hit you 6 times in the round....
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Flailer
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I would tend to agree and go so far as to say the Dragon Shape form shouldn't be used without alteration in NS4. If you want to talk matchups, for curiosity's sake, it might be better to talk about which two builds against a Dragon Shape would fare better....
Flailer
NS Developer
None of us is as dumb as all of us.
NS Developer
None of us is as dumb as all of us.
Dropping dragon DEX sounds like a good idea, even WITHOUT raising reflex back, as someone suggested. Then you could do all kinds of creative things to get around dragon insanity.
For example...sunburst! If the dragon has somewhat lower reflex saves, go ahead and blind them! Then they won't hit anyone quite so much. Also, throw in things like grease and actually have the dragon hit the floor and give everyone +4 to hit!
Other ways to at least make sure the dragon doesn't hit you:
-Darkness + ultravision (on all party mates)
-Improved invisibility (as far as I've been able to tell True Sight does NOT overcome concealment)
-Bigby's Interposing (combine -10 to saves along with the other stuff mentioned here, and the dragon shouldn't be hitting you all that much).
Or, you COULD make Dragon Shape exlusively a shifter feat if you want to do away with this build on NS4 *ducks*.
For example...sunburst! If the dragon has somewhat lower reflex saves, go ahead and blind them! Then they won't hit anyone quite so much. Also, throw in things like grease and actually have the dragon hit the floor and give everyone +4 to hit!
Other ways to at least make sure the dragon doesn't hit you:
-Darkness + ultravision (on all party mates)
-Improved invisibility (as far as I've been able to tell True Sight does NOT overcome concealment)
-Bigby's Interposing (combine -10 to saves along with the other stuff mentioned here, and the dragon shouldn't be hitting you all that much).
Or, you COULD make Dragon Shape exlusively a shifter feat if you want to do away with this build on NS4 *ducks*.
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DrakhanValane
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Yeah, crafted silvery weapons are +4, but by definition lack elemental damage of any sort, and frequently lack massive criticals/favorable qualities as well in a rather hard-to-predict way. The extra 5% to hit is negligeable when you consider that a fighting type will be doing far less damage per hit, which rarely if ever balances out.
~DM Yonwe
Lolth - Goddess of the Drow
Velsharoon - God of Undeath
Lolth - Goddess of the Drow
Velsharoon - God of Undeath
War/Travel 28 Cleric/2 Bard/10 RDD
BA: 25
Str: 14 : 38 (13 base +5(lvls) +8(rdd) +12(bonus))
DF: 5
DP: 5
War Domain: 6
Aid: 1
Bless:1
Bat. Tide: 2
Prayer: 1
Feats : 4
Haste : 1
Gr. Mag. Weap: 5
Gets you swinging 70/65/60/70/70/70
(Not sure why the 6th hit gets put on there, but watching the battle text and animations, i had 6 hits, 4 of which at highest ab, 1 extra from haste, 2 from DP)
Even with 78 ac, 4 hits @ 60%, 1 @ 35% and 1 10%.
Works out to 46.8% hit rate/rnd and 18.7% crit rate on a 12-20 rapier.
Throw 16 unblockable dmg on each hit (9 divine, 7 magic), since we're using GMW no fire dmg. Best bet would be with a rapier, 12-20 crits, which wouldnt be so hard with this ab, wouldnt be suprised to see one every round or two. Best case on avg hit would be 9 divine, 7 magic, 32 physical (gets soaked), on crit, 18 + 7 + ~25(40 soaked), gives 50.
Working out the numbers puts it at about 15-20dmg/rnd, dragon has what 700 hp?
I'd give the dragon 30-40 rounds to live, and with 69 ac to boot, it wont be killing off the cleric in that amt of time or shouldnt with 5-600 hp. Especially if all your dmg is one type, say slash, even if you could hit for 60s with low 100 crits, shrug off 50% on immunity, 15/- resist and 12 reduction, makes everything go to waste thats non-crit, and the regen should help with keepin those to managable.
Kd would change the numbers here huge, and my heads gonna start smokin if i try to factor that into the numbers
but it'll hurt you more than me since your ac goes down the crapper when your prone, not to mention im swingin 74s then, against your 58 ac (lower w/o uncanny dodge, say 45).
Though this is a fairly 'uber' build, and there wont be many other builds reach into 70s ab w/o TS (swap bard for sorc and you'd see a few more crits with TS active). If you wanted to add some sanity for those that dont have the luxury of 33 ab in buffs, try dropping the dodge ac bonus dragons get from 20 to 15, then just hope your dragon doesnt meet a well built cleric.
But then we'll never know if im just full of hot air if they dont put the lvls back to 40, in which case i doubt anything will have the ac to stop clerics.
My 3 cents...
BA: 25
Str: 14 : 38 (13 base +5(lvls) +8(rdd) +12(bonus))
DF: 5
DP: 5
War Domain: 6
Aid: 1
Bless:1
Bat. Tide: 2
Prayer: 1
Feats : 4
Haste : 1
Gr. Mag. Weap: 5
Gets you swinging 70/65/60/70/70/70
(Not sure why the 6th hit gets put on there, but watching the battle text and animations, i had 6 hits, 4 of which at highest ab, 1 extra from haste, 2 from DP)
Even with 78 ac, 4 hits @ 60%, 1 @ 35% and 1 10%.
Works out to 46.8% hit rate/rnd and 18.7% crit rate on a 12-20 rapier.
Throw 16 unblockable dmg on each hit (9 divine, 7 magic), since we're using GMW no fire dmg. Best bet would be with a rapier, 12-20 crits, which wouldnt be so hard with this ab, wouldnt be suprised to see one every round or two. Best case on avg hit would be 9 divine, 7 magic, 32 physical (gets soaked), on crit, 18 + 7 + ~25(40 soaked), gives 50.
Working out the numbers puts it at about 15-20dmg/rnd, dragon has what 700 hp?
I'd give the dragon 30-40 rounds to live, and with 69 ac to boot, it wont be killing off the cleric in that amt of time or shouldnt with 5-600 hp. Especially if all your dmg is one type, say slash, even if you could hit for 60s with low 100 crits, shrug off 50% on immunity, 15/- resist and 12 reduction, makes everything go to waste thats non-crit, and the regen should help with keepin those to managable.
Kd would change the numbers here huge, and my heads gonna start smokin if i try to factor that into the numbers
but it'll hurt you more than me since your ac goes down the crapper when your prone, not to mention im swingin 74s then, against your 58 ac (lower w/o uncanny dodge, say 45).
Though this is a fairly 'uber' build, and there wont be many other builds reach into 70s ab w/o TS (swap bard for sorc and you'd see a few more crits with TS active). If you wanted to add some sanity for those that dont have the luxury of 33 ab in buffs, try dropping the dodge ac bonus dragons get from 20 to 15, then just hope your dragon doesnt meet a well built cleric.
But then we'll never know if im just full of hot air if they dont put the lvls back to 40, in which case i doubt anything will have the ac to stop clerics.
My 3 cents...
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TheBestDeception
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Clerics are far from being uber...beyond that, I don't want to make this into a "Post your build and let TBD discredit it..."
1) War Domain is so terribly short term. Even a CHA based cleric wouldnt be able to last the 30-40 rounds needed to kill the dragon, as decribed by you.
2) Clerics can be dispelled...then they are just a low-AB, low dmg fighter.
3) Constant rebuffing causes you to go flatfooted and make a concentratoin check several times.
4) IKD gives the Dragon a +8 to hit against you...though I don't know where the "69 AC Cleric" is derived, it is still able to be hit quite well.
5) There was a Cleric 28 / RDD 10 / Bard 2 (You are by no means original here) . He was the build I described months ago as possibly being up to the task ... he wasn't.
1) War Domain is so terribly short term. Even a CHA based cleric wouldnt be able to last the 30-40 rounds needed to kill the dragon, as decribed by you.
2) Clerics can be dispelled...then they are just a low-AB, low dmg fighter.
3) Constant rebuffing causes you to go flatfooted and make a concentratoin check several times.
4) IKD gives the Dragon a +8 to hit against you...though I don't know where the "69 AC Cleric" is derived, it is still able to be hit quite well.
5) There was a Cleric 28 / RDD 10 / Bard 2 (You are by no means original here) . He was the build I described months ago as possibly being up to the task ... he wasn't.
But, it's such a draining job that, until you've DMed on an NWN server yourself, you the playerbase, have got to cut the DMs some slack. - Flailer
IKD was fixed last patch!!! (For the ab bonus part, system is still lame.)
The cleric with 5000 buff spells that add to +20 (and +20 is the limit, not the +28 you can get on the char sheet) is more sloppy Bio coding that we haven't fixed yet (or decided how specifically to fix). In PnP those bonuses have types--i.e. luck, morale...the only kind that stack with themselves are dodge and unnamed. Pretty sure I fixed the mystery additional attack...the most that Div Power can add is two (if your level 16 or higher with 10 or less BAB).
That said, Bio requires 30 wisdom to take a feat (YUCH!) that duplicates what a 12th level druid is capable of doing with wildshape. It's just sad in some ways.
The cleric with 5000 buff spells that add to +20 (and +20 is the limit, not the +28 you can get on the char sheet) is more sloppy Bio coding that we haven't fixed yet (or decided how specifically to fix). In PnP those bonuses have types--i.e. luck, morale...the only kind that stack with themselves are dodge and unnamed. Pretty sure I fixed the mystery additional attack...the most that Div Power can add is two (if your level 16 or higher with 10 or less BAB).
That said, Bio requires 30 wisdom to take a feat (YUCH!) that duplicates what a 12th level druid is capable of doing with wildshape. It's just sad in some ways.
Tep wrote:I login and there's a dwarf to kill. You can't ask for much more than that.
Alkapwn wrote:NC has the most amazing melee build there is. Its a friggin unstopable juggernaut of pain.
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DrakhanValane
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Lokey wrote:In PnP those bonuses have types--i.e. luck, morale...the only kind that stack with themselves are dodge and unnamed.
Don't forget circumstance bonuses. :)
If you tilt your head far enough and squint hard enough, anything becomes as simple or complex as you'd like--regardless of whether it is or not. -- A lesson learned from Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science
It's pretty easy to disable the Epic Dragonshape feat. Of course its not an issue until the level cap goes up anway!
Epic Dragonshape is right up there with Dev Crit, HiPS, Bigbies and IGMS as far as busted stuff goes.
However I LOVE to kill people with HiPS, Bigbies and IGMS so I'm a dirty great hippocrit when it comes to game balance issues /ROFL
Epic Dragonshape is right up there with Dev Crit, HiPS, Bigbies and IGMS as far as busted stuff goes.
However I LOVE to kill people with HiPS, Bigbies and IGMS so I'm a dirty great hippocrit when it comes to game balance issues /ROFL
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Donan
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With the new areas in and new equipment available I thought to ask about dragon forms again. I know the areas were just set up and still being worked on so this is by no means a demand or complaint just curiosity. I have a druid on the path to dragon shape using every feat for wis so no epic feats until after 30, yuck.
Dragons only get armor when shifted, so all the nice new ammys, gloves, etc cant be used. Their attacks are all slashing so I am becoming worried that as fun as it seems it will turn out to be an oversized marshmallow (think Ghostbusters). The 40 reduction is great but you loose the all the other nice items and w/o elemental damage a well armed melee can absorb most of the attacks anyways, 50% slash resist +10/- as of right now.
Ah and finally my question, are there plans to modify dragon forms at all, for better or worse? I also have high lvl shifter, ugh she is aweful, a lot of fun but useless so I guess shifter forms and dragon may be changed at same time or not.
Btw I know all ac becomes deflection but does resistance from a shield 25% 10/- count?
Dragons only get armor when shifted, so all the nice new ammys, gloves, etc cant be used. Their attacks are all slashing so I am becoming worried that as fun as it seems it will turn out to be an oversized marshmallow (think Ghostbusters). The 40 reduction is great but you loose the all the other nice items and w/o elemental damage a well armed melee can absorb most of the attacks anyways, 50% slash resist +10/- as of right now.
Ah and finally my question, are there plans to modify dragon forms at all, for better or worse? I also have high lvl shifter, ugh she is aweful, a lot of fun but useless so I guess shifter forms and dragon may be changed at same time or not.
Btw I know all ac becomes deflection but does resistance from a shield 25% 10/- count?