Talk of Balance and dragons.

Gizamaluke · Post by **Gizamaluke** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:05 am

I recent days as I have toyed with improved versions of what ive already made in Neversummers servers I have become increasingly aware of a massive tip in the balance of power since the last patch.

The balance is all but gone in part thanks to the fixing of the shifter bug making... Dragons all but unstoppable by anything but a mage... and usually it must be a pack of mages just to take one down.

but this is not the issue... its been made clear a good mage is up to the task... a good melee build however is NOT up to the task. A dragon is simply too much for even a party of level 40 builds to take on right now thanks to its insane Armor class of at least 78 if built properly.

Now... on to the solution to this problem.

I will not suggest anything so silly as banning monks to get rid of wisdom AC bonuses... instead I will suggest a solution that has been used on a server very simmilar to this one... cut the dragon shapes dex by at LEAST 10 points lowering it into the "hittable catagory". For refference look to the "bastions of war" server where the dragonshapes have had their base dex cut all the way down to 10. Putting a dragonshape build firmly in the hittable range making it at least possible for a good melee build to hold its own.

I suggest this AS a player of one of the 2 Dragonshapes on the server for the sake of balance please do this.

Post by **TheBestDeception** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:54 am

sigh...

There is no doubt something needs to be changed...Extreme example is my dragon killing Foo, Elessar, and almost Cyberdine (got to near death...Foo respawned and came back...) at the same time. Foo was the only one doing significant dmg through his igms...I could basically ignore the other 2 while I kept him KD'ed.

There is a certian melee that could possibly take out a dragon, though the player is still several levels from 40. Regardless, even if it is possible, dragons would be able to stomp 99.9% of the rest of melee...uber to say the least.

Dex reduction seems to be a quick fix, though it would also hurt Dex-based Skill checks (grrrr!). Would it not be effective to simply cut the AC bonus a dragon is given?

Also, there have been many complaints about the server-save bug associated with shifters and druids...is there any way to stop this from happening?

scruffyspellslinger · Post by **scruffyspellslinger** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:43 pm

Also, there have been many complaints about the server-save bug associated with shifters and druids...is there any way to stop this from happening?

try
http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic ... 1&forum=47

which may fix it, no report yet

or

http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic ... 7&forum=42

for Zelles Shifter Detials Version IV which covers most shiftery things

scruffyspellslinger · Post by **scruffyspellslinger** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:54 pm

or even

http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic ... 8&forum=47

which claims to be a fix

Post by **Lokey** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:40 pm

Subject topic: Dragon Shape is a feat (sigh) that can't be taken before level 30, probably later, which is likely outside the scope of current and current planned content. Stats, ac, 6/40 soak, a couple dice of damage, knockdown bugs...that's unstoppable except for a door frame even without cherrypicked class benefits (at least there aren't Palemunchkin dragons, then there'd be no end of complaints). Besides, I prefer druid to be the munchiest class over an x/pali/monk with 8 wisdom anyday :wink:

Shifter bugs: Everything can be fixed except what happens on death (unmorph, reequiped but bonuses aren't applied). Depends on where we want to go with wild/elemental shape and when we can get to it.

Throst54 · Post by **Throst54** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:28 am

Lokey wrote: Besides, I prefer druid to be the munchiest class over an x/pali/monk with 8 wisdom anyday :wink:

yea.. but you cant get all saves over 70 w/o gear in a druid twink build....

Alrahur · Post by **Alrahur** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:11 pm

Lvl 9 spell shape change dragon is problem? not shifter one i gues as lvl cap is 25 and you cant really get wisdom to get that one. :/
But i think as theres other post about that you need for example monk or paladin 5 level till able to change other class. Also im suprised that shape change dragon form gain so good AB to kill high lvl fighter, maybe at lvl 25 it still works but think again when chars get higher, shouldnt that problem solve itself? Shape change is still lvl 9 spell so it should alone mean something so if wizard / druid use it should have bonuses that doesnt totally outplay it when using at higher levels, still wonder 78 AC at lvl 20-25 as shape change dragon form. :/

Post by **TheBestDeception** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:13 am

Alrahur wrote:Shape change is still lvl 9 spell so it should alone mean something so if wizard / druid use it should have bonuses that doesnt totally outplay it when using at higher levels, still wonder 78 AC at lvl 20-25 as shape change dragon form. :/

This was posted way back when there was no level cap. It was in reference to the Druid ability of Dragon Shape (NOT the shifter version), which does get in excess of 78 AC.

Its sick.

Zhorn · Post by **Zhorn** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:28 pm

I've disabled Epic Dragon Shape on the server I'm hosting

In terms of game-breaking-ness it's right up there with Dev Crit, Timestop, un-nerfed Bigbies and un-nerfed IGMS!

drakebrimstone · Post by **drakebrimstone** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:46 pm

What's wrong with Dev Crit? :twisted:

sure one could end up with a 10+ threat range making the likelyhood of a crit realy high, but they get a fort save! (What IS the DC for that save anyway?)
Back to the point about dragon shape, even if they can make a build with an AC of 78, it CAN still be hit with a good fighter build and a little magical assistance. (True Strike anyone?) Heck, combine True Strike on a character with Dev Crit and that Dragon is going down!

(Actualy, the nastiest part of Dev Crit is the fact Great Cleave is a requirment, you can end up slaughtering everything in range in one attack!)

DrakhanValane · Post by **DrakhanValane** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:22 am

The DC on Dev Crit is something like 10 + Half character level + STR modifier. It's possible to get it up in the 50's at level 40 with the right build.
Probably just in the mid to upper 40s with a crit monster that has a 10-20 crit range

Post by **TheBestDeception** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:52 pm

I don't even know if this is worth debating, being as Lokey stated Dragons (i.e. lvl 30 and up) as being out of the range of this module. However, I must ask drakebrimstone if he ever fought a Dragon on NS4. My guess is no, as you somehow think it is easy to crit one.

In fact, it is quite unlikely, with even the best players having to roll 20's to even score a hit (Dissection, Elessar, Giz's Dragon...). With such, another 20 would have to be rolled in order to crit the threat, leaving the chance at 1/400. Not exactly impressive.

Throst54 · Post by **Throst54** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:07 am

TheBestDeception wrote:I don't even know if this is worth debating, being as Lokey stated Dragons (i.e. lvl 30 and up) as being out of the range of this module. However, I must ask drakebrimstone if he ever fought a Dragon on NS4. My guess is no, as you somehow think it is easy to crit one.

and when did you read that? you really think all the epic areas they are working on right now are for only lvls 20-30?

Post by **TheBestDeception** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:32 am

Lokey wrote:Subject topic: Dragon Shape is a feat (sigh) that can't be taken before level 30, probably later, which is likely outside the scope of current and current planned content.

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:26 pm

Didn't read any previous posts except the dex reduction one for dragons.
Reduce the dex, but toss on an invisible item that increases reflex saves to counter the save drops.