Elimination of Cheese Builds

[-BannyD-]

u know how bad this would make the server?

think about all the build possibilites if u have to take 5 lvls of every class u have....there arent many. it would elminate any type of diversity between characters and ruin the fun of building a unique character, since there are far less possibilites to work with when u have to have a minimum of 5 lvls of a class. the best builds would be found quickly and easily and create a server full of people using the same exact character.

for the limited skill points per lvl idea....no

almost every build requires u to stop lvling in one class for several lvls and lvl in a different one; one that probably doesnt have the same class skills as the other. this is to maximize your number of effective feats so u dont have to waste a feat on something like epic toughness.

not everyone uses the dump saved skill points with 1 lvl of "cheese" class "exploit" either. a lot of builds dont even have just one lvl of a class such as monk or bard or shadowdancer. there are benefits to using more than 1 lvl of those classes but i guess no one else realizes that.

in my opinion people are just annoyed with shadowdancers. try making a build with high spot or listen and see how well they do; a shadowdancer that can be seen is the easiest thing to kill. they rely on their stealth to live so if u take away their stealth, u take away their vitality.

u dont elimate cheese builds with this (there would be new cheese builds found). u only elimiinate any freedom a person has in creating their character

[Throst54]

u know how bad this would make the server?

think about all the build possibilites if u have to take 5 lvls of every class u have....there arent many. it would elminate any type of diversity between characters and ruin the fun of building a unique character, since there are far less possibilites to work with when u have to have a minimum of 5 lvls of a class. the best builds would be found quickly and easily and create a server full of people using the same exact character.

for the limited skill points per lvl idea....no

almost every build requires u to stop lvling in one class for several lvls and lvl in a different one; one that probably doesnt have the same class skills as the other. this is to maximize your number of effective feats so u dont have to waste a feat on something like epic toughness.

not everyone uses the dump saved skill points with 1 lvl of "cheese" class "exploit" either. a lot of builds dont even have just one lvl of a class such as monk or bard or shadowdancer. there are benefits to using more than 1 lvl of those classes but i guess no one else realizes that.

in my opinion people are just annoyed with shadowdancers. try making a build with high spot or listen and see how well they do; a shadowdancer that can be seen is the easiest thing to kill. they rely on their stealth to live so if u take away their stealth, u take away their vitality.

u dont elimate cheese builds with this (there would be new cheese builds found). u only elimiinate any freedom a person has in creating their character

that reason... or it just makes you think hardre to come up with builds.

diversity? so instead of 1 lvl they take 5... how diverse... hehe

[Zhorn]

That's 100% true. People will always find ways to make new cheezy builds.

But remember even the cheeziest builds can be brought low with careful planning.....

HiPS is easily countered with True Seeing or high spot/listen.
Sorc/Pally insane saving throws can be countered with no-save spells and/or a nice combination of knock-downs and critical hits.
Weaponmasters can have a bad day when they run into Crit-immune players (Palemasters/Epic Shifters) or you can just be REALLY nice to them and hope they don't kick the stuffing out of you!

Of course there is always the risk that someone will create..... UBER-CHEESE and then we're all poked.

So embrace cheese... before the cheese embraces YOU!

[Lokey]

Got through the tedious part of it plus solving the not quite possible with the toolset stuff you always encounter. Only way to do it allows an exploit, but it can be caught and tracked, so not a big deal there.

[turtlehermit]

Nice to see some good fast responses. I understand there will always be cheese builds. Maybe I was mistaken when I thought there might be a slightest bit of rp here. I forgot why I came here. According to RP worlds I have playind in I was accused of being too power/munchkinny ect now here I seemed to ask for less. If nothing is done it is fine bye me. I was merely pointing out my view of how things are and things I have partaken in myself first hand.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, and near septic tanks.

[Zhorn]

What's wrong with Powergaming? If you're going to play, PLAY TO WIN!
That's my motto. (Yes I get called all kinds of names when I go near RP servers as well..... usually because I level past people and then start to kill and loot them when they annoy me...... damn roleplayers!).

I've played on PW's that delete people for leveling too fast...... you can take the whole Roleplaying thing a bit TOO seriously.

I've also seen places where the DM's can delevel your char if you talk out of character, or when dead, or if you use Shout/Party Talk or even send a Tell to get someone to come Rez you! /sigh

I'm still trying to work out where on the Hack'n'Slash -> RP continuum this PW sits. Looks to be fairly high on the Hack n Slash (which I like!).

[TheBestDeception]

Limiting the skill points per class level would seriously dampen much of the creativity that is possibly in NWN.

For example, for discipline to be effective, one must essentially max it out. This would cause creative builds that mix a melee and caster class to be useless, as they would lose the benefits of both the class' skills.

If the 5 class lvl requirement is implemented, is that not enough to discourage the taking of a class for skills to be dumped in? I dont necessarily support that nerf, either...but it is the lesser of 2 evils...

[Denort]

Got through the tedious part of it plus solving the not quite possible with the toolset stuff you always encounter. Only way to do it allows an exploit, but it can be caught and tracked, so not a big deal there.

Instead of taking away from one to even things out, why not give to the other? Give a bonus of +1 to all class skills per 4 levels in that class.

Imagine if you will a level 40 single class fighter. Try hard, I know its highly improbable. Lets call her Felicity.
Now also imagine a 35/5 cleric/fighter. Much easier, 4 fighter pre 20 for BAB 16 and then the last fighter level at 40 to max out discipline. Lets call him Clancy.

Assume that Felicity the Fighter put all her skill points into Discipline, Heal, Concentration and cross class into Tumble.
Assume that Clancy the Cleric put all his points into Concentration and Spellcraft on cleric levels, Concentration and Discipline on fighter levels and cross class into Tumble.

With a system of giving a skill bonus of +1 for every 4 levels in a class with access to that skill their final skills excluding feats, items and stat bonuses would look like this.

Felicity the Fighter
40 levels with Concentration access : 43 + 10 = 53 Concentration
40 levels with Discipline access : 43 + 10 = 53 Discipline
40 levels with Heal access : 43 + 10 = 53 Heal
0 levels with Tumble access : 21 + 0 = 21 Tumble
40 levels with Lore access : 0 + 10 = 10 Lore
40 levels with Parry access : 0 + 10 = 10 Parry

Clancy the Cleric
40 levels with Concentration access : 43 + 10 = 53 Concentration
5 levels with Discipline access : 43 + 1 = 44 Discipline
35 levels with Spellcraft access : 43 + 8 = 51 Spellcraft
40 levels with Heal access : 0 + 10 = 10 Heal
0 levels with Tumble access : 21 + 0 = 21 Tumble
40 levels with Lore access : 0 + 10 = 10 Lore
40 levels with Parry access : 0 + 10 = 10 Parry
35 levels with Persuade access : 0 + 8 = 8 Persuade

Note the significant difference in Discipline skills? This allows classes to use multi classing to gain access to skills they do not have directly just as they do now but those who have invested more levels in a class with access to a skill will get a significant boost to that skill.

This does mean that all characters can potentially have skill checks up to 10 higher than normal and the impact of this should be carefully considered. Unfortunately it does not help with Tumble AC bonus since that is calculated from invested skill points and not from modified skill check (mind you, Tumble AC should not work in heavy armour) but for pretty much everything else it will be a nice bonus to those who invest more of their levels in classes with the skills that they want.

[Zhorn]

Limiting the skill points per class level would seriously dampen much of the creativity that is possibly in NWN...

Creativity thanks to Bioware's bad programming/design choices?

It pays to remember that the game wasn't originally designed with PW's in mind.

Does anyone know what happens in PnP AD&D 3rd or 3.5 Edition with regards to multi-classing? I'm guess for a start there is no such thing as "skill point banking" in the first place.

Ideally there would be some way to check and see if any spare points were left over and then not allow the level up to go through, but from memory I think there is no way to see how many skill points are left over.

[CrazedInd]

I want to take the idea of improving the single class individual a little bit further. Now, a monk in the NWN handbook gets Wis Bonus added to AC. What if this was modified slightly ( I have no clue how hard this would be). Take the 1 level monk and give Wis Bonus/5 and add that to AC. Now that means that a 19 cleric/ 1 monk will get whatever their Wis is cut by 1/5th before it is added to their AC. Now to persuade people to take more levels in monk, make it so that every two levels, the modifier (the 5), is reduced by 1. Effectively, a level 10 monk will get the full benefit of wis bonus to AC. This can be taken even further to reward someone who stays true to a certain class, so the level 12 monk gets let's say 1 and 1/5 X their Wis Bonus added to their AC, up to level 20 where it is 2 X their Wis Bonus added to their AC. This would apply for the saving throws for Paladins. Now I have to agree, a cheese like taking one class of sorc to get RDD is horrid, can the taking of the RDD class check for levels in sorc/bard, and delevel if they are not equal to lets say 7 or something?

[Denort]

Now that means that a 19 cleric/ 1 monk will get whatever their Wis is cut by 1/5th before it is added to their AC.

Again I ask, what is the obsession with almost every balancing act being a reduction in one rather than a boost to the other? Also you do not see a lot of clerics/monks that wear robes. They are all still clad in fullplate and tower shields, because of which their monk AC is neutralised anyway.

This can be taken even further to reward someone who stays true to a certain class, so the level 12 monk gets let's say 1 and 1/5 X their Wis Bonus added to their AC, up to level 20 where it is 2 X their Wis Bonus added to their AC. This would apply for the saving throws for Paladins.

Paladins already get tremenously high saves, much like monks and AC. Perhaps we should be looking at boosting the abilities of things like single class fighters, barbarians and rangers rather than boosting those which are already quite successful as a pure class.

Now I have to agree, a cheese like taking one class of sorc to get RDD is horrid, can the taking of the RDD class check for levels in sorc/bard, and delevel if they are not equal to lets say 7 or something?

Red Dragon Desciple is supposed to be a class that is dedicated to exploring its draconic ancestry. The whole bard/sorceror thing is supposed to be for spontaneous casting as a characteristic of this ancestry so 1 sorceror level is fine. Bards should probably require 2 levels since that is where their casting progression starts.

Personally I would love to see the bard/sorceror requirement abolished in favour of the lore requirement and the feat Resist Energy : Fire. RDD is more like a racial level up (much like monsters with levels of animal, elemental, outsider etc) so the requirements should reflect that.

[Lokey]

Don't see inflating the numbers involved as a way to balance. For the fighters above: a check that is challengine to Felicity (one that she'll make 50% of the time) will result in failure for Clancy 95% of the time. Bah, one of the many ways the system falls apart, nothing new there.

The point is to make taking a cross-class skill something that can be considered and designed for...Bio mistakes negate the reason for class specific skills in the first place, why spend 2 for 1 when you can get 1 for 1 by leveling up in another class?

What's specifically wrong with the cleric 35 / fighter 5 "only" having 10 + 5 * int bonus skill points available for fighter exclusive skills--excepting two poorly implemented combat feats that are overpowered compared to PnP?

[Denort]

What's specifically wrong with the cleric 35 / fighter 5 "only" having 10 + 5 * int bonus skill points available for fighter exclusive skills--excepting two poorly implemented combat feats that are overpowered compared to PnP?

I agree that Discipline is the primary reason for multiclassing to gain skills. Cross classing Discipline is pretty much pointless since it is very much all or nothing. All the other skills have some use with only 21 points invested.

I assume that some big changes are planned for Called Shot, Knockdown, Disarm and the assorted Bigby's spells that use a Discipline instead of a saving throw. With the current system, denying all classes without Discipline the abilty to multiclass to get it will cause a lot of problems.

[sep caldessian]

Limiting the skill points per class level would seriously dampen much of the creativity that is possibly in NWN...

if removing the skill dump 'feature' in NWN dampens much of the creativity in one's build, then one is not very creative to begin with. maybe youre reffering to a creative manipulation of a broken system, but not creativity in character creation, tactics, and roleplaying.

[-BannyD-]

if removing the skill dump 'feature' in NWN dampens much of the creativity in one's build, then one is not very creative to begin with. maybe youre reffering to a creative manipulation of a broken system, but not creativity in character creation, tactics, and roleplaying.

if this is a role playing server...why is it listed under pw action?

anyway back to the topic. i dont see why there is any need to nerf builds more. u already cannot take 2 prestige classes which eliminates the cheesiest builds like RDD/PM and DD/shifter and DD/PM. plus certain prestige classes are only allowed in certin factions, and that faction may not be able to use a core class that makes your build good. for example: no evil ranger/assassins can be made, which imo is the only way to make an assassin good so assassins are completely useless here.

there really isnt any need for more nerfs (pertaining mutliclassing). and even if these ideas were used...whats stopping them from nerfing builds more bc the new cheese builds are being complained about? it just turns into an endless spiral that would ultimately end up with only pure class builds allowed.