Sub-Races and Synergy

Old-Sire · Post by **Old-Sire** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 10:18 am

Well, I'll just start off by asking.. why?

Why bother having sub races in this module under the synergy xp system. It flat out does not work.

Every Sub-Race that takes a hit with an ECL, also take a massive hit to xp in a party. ECL seems to apply every negative to party experience possible from being treated *EDIT*actual character level *EDIT* in terms of party split to being treated 3 levels higher for the actual exp gained for a straight across kill (using +3 ecl for example).

Only one of these negatives need apply, and I feel that the best way to balance this is to simply treat the character as if it was its ECL higher; what that means is a lvl 4 with a +3 ECL should be able to travel with a lvl 7 and be treated as a lvl 7 in all aspects of the split.

It comes down to the party's decision whether that lvl 4 character is effective enough to be worth having in the party in the first place.

ATI · Post by **ATI** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:03 pm

in most cases...they aren't....

It would be cool if ECL adjusted characters had odd starting items that made them more combat ready, to symbolize their already gained knowledge of the land..or something i don't know.

Old-Sire · Post by **Old-Sire** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:12 pm

You're right, most cases sub-race abilities don't even come close to making up for lack of class levels with special abilities.

Take a half-ogre for example:

+4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma

+4 Taunt, -2 Discipline, -2 Persuade

+2 to all Fortitude saving throws

Level Adjustment +2

Darkvision

I don't see anything here that is so good as to throw away 2 levels worth of experience that can't be made up by staying a normal half orc. I see as many negatives as positives to be worthwhile as any other race with out a higher ECL.

I'm certain I could go through all the sub races and pick them apart case by case, modification by modification but I don't think its necessary.

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:27 pm

So eliminate the penalties to ability scores or remove the ecl, easy fix.

TastyTreat · Post by **TastyTreat** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:33 pm

From my perspective the ECL adustments are a good idea but for the most part are set too high. If the ECL were to be lowered by one for most subraces that would make them a bit more appealing to me. Not to mention that I refuse to play any planear race since loosing xp when resed is just a major turnoff when considering the already high ECLs.

Old-Sire · Post by **Old-Sire** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 7:08 pm

I personally don't even care so much that an ECL needs to apply to a sub race.. it does in PnP D&D and I would expect the same here. But some balancing would be nice in favor of making these subraces worth looking over.

I'm mostly irked at the inability to stick with a party for all intents and purposes. If you start play in a party of the same character level, the rest of the non sub race characters will shortly out distance the sub race character's level (due to gaining more xp with no ECL cut). As the rest of the party achieves higher levels the subrace character falls behind and the xp split leans in favor of the higher level non sub race characters in said party (if you're still with me).

So far the only way I can see a sub race character gaining its fair share of xp is by travelling solo, and its obvious to me with all the rest of the balancing on the server that its party play that is the aim, vice solo.

ATI · Post by **ATI** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 3:28 am

If they were to really implement the monk sub race...this githzerai or whatever.....those dudes would need a +3 ECL, they get like +6 dex, 4 con and str and lose 2 cha and int.....that is a seriously awesome tradeoff worth losing 3 levels....

Non of the ECL's seem worth it on the sub races because +2 just isn't enough to do jack squat in this game. Maybe double all of the positive adjustments

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 5:40 am

The svirfneblin sub-race is worth it, or will be once the epic areas go in and the spell resistence bonus is uncapped.

One annoying problem though - the state of the various AC boni. Both the svirfneblin AC bonus and the pale master AC bonus are non-stacking (I believe the PM bonus is deflection, & the racial bonus is natural? Armour?). Could use some tweaking to switch both to something that does stack like dodge, especially at +3 ECL.

Old-Sire · Post by **Old-Sire** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:16 pm

Svirf's spell resistance is capped? At what?

Documentation says 10 +4 every 4 levels but doesn't say anything about a cap.

*Edit* found it in the tracker, looks like it caps at Epic (30 SR)*Edit*

Old-Sire · Post by **Old-Sire** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 3:09 pm

If the PM bonus is deflection for its class feature it won't stack with the Svirf. Yes that's right, Svirf bonus is.. deflection (for pete's sake).

This needs to be changed to reflect properly for the race as dodge bonus.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 6:57 pm

All the racial SR values are capped at 30 at the moment.

Old-Sire · Post by **Old-Sire** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 12:29 pm

For some reason I had it stuck in my head that an SR check was D20 + spell lvl + penetration vs the SR #. If that was the case a 30 SR wouldn't be too bad.

I decided to figure out why it seems that alot of low level spells were breaking my 22 SR so I went back and double checked. Whoops, guess that 30 SR is garbage after all. Caster lvl + penetration feats + d20 vs the SR # is pretty harsh when a lvl 20+ caster throws stuff at you and your SR won't exceed 30.. Their bonuses alone will cut through.

So what's the +3 ECL for again? Still haven't figured this one out.

The Rizz · Post by **The Rizz** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:06 am

Frankly, I think pretty much all the ECLs are 1 point too high - generally the bonuses the subrace gives is not enough to make up for the ECL difference you're being penalized with. In fact, if you look in the PnP monstrous manual, most of these creature types have an ECL 1 lower than in NS, as well.

Also, I have to second the complaint about penalties for rez/raise with the planetouched subraces - the vulnerability to Banishment/Planar Binding (along with the ECL) are penalty enough.

HealingBreeze · Post by **HealingBreeze** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:59 am

Here's an example of a well-balanced subrace:

Kender:
ECL +1
Immune to Fear
+2 Dexterity, -2 Strength, -2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma
+2 Open Lock, +2 Pick Pocket, +4 Taunt

That's an good rogue subrace, and for a 1 level penalty I'd take it.
Also, I agree with those that think xp should be factored as (Total level = (Char Level +ECL))
It would be nice if chars with ECL were able to use equipment in the same way (Level + ECL), seeing as they'll be fighting stronger enemies earlier on than their less experienced counterparts.