Two-Handed Silly?

[Ting]

Traditionally using a two-handed weapon trades the protection of a shield for extra damage, but I was thinking that the balance might be thrown off by the way NS4 equipment is set up. A player using a two-handed weapon is basically giving up resistance and immunity to an extra damage type as well as the AC bonus.

So what do you think; is wielding a two-handed weapon silly?

[IcemanXV]

I have a 2-handed weapon user and I've noticed he does similar damage to other fighter/weaponmasters with 1 handed weapons. I may get an extra 4-5 damage, but with immunities it's even less of an edge. Until things can be balanced in that department, I think going 2 hander is a bit of a waste.

[JesterOI]

I think it totally silly unless you are fighting a mage..

[satantrik]

I have taken note of the uniform damage increases for weapons in my twohander build, but the one definite thing going for it is disarm. Large weapons get +4 or more to discipline checks versus disarm from smaller weapons and people resisting may get -4 or worse to resist. This comes in handy a lot more than you'd think.

I have noticed that that extra 50% str mod bonus to damage really helps if you dump all your stats into strength. The difference between 18 strength wielders may be only 2 damage, but the difference between (potentially at level 40) 35 strength wielders is 6 damage (still not a lot, but that damage is also figured into crits...a x5 crit with WM'd scythe at this point can be quite lethal...an extra 30 damage for twohanding it).

Any word from Devs on this issue?

[lord_modred]

you've got to take into account the damage potential of the big bad two handers though, great axe for example isnt just a 1d12 weapon... it's a 1d12 weapon with a x3 critical... and scythe... that x4 crit is enough to scare anyone... and when you put those weapons in the hands of a weapon master... the damage rolls go way up.

[IcemanXV]

Sure, it does more damage, and seems to add up alright....

But the main problem is that the damage usually isn't enough to want to give up another potential 25% elemental and physical immunity as well as +5 or +6 AC.

Difference of 10+ Damage? Now we may be talking. As it is right now, most people won't get much above 25 Base Strength within the first 20-25 Levels. My level 22 Has 27 Buffed. That's +12 damage instead of +8. Hardly enough to justify a 2-hander.

[sheriffbugs]

I made my main character to be a two-handed greatsword wielder. She looks way-cool with a massive glowing piece of Drow or Dragon Steel. Of course, there is no way I can afford the AC/Immunity/Resist cost of dropping my shield. So I run around killing things with the Greatsword. But when things get tough, I HAVE to bring up the shield.

This also has to do with the fact that slash resist appears to be more common on tougher creatures than bludgeon. So the damage difference from the Greatsword to one of the High end morningstars is usually minimal.

[Heydeive]

Dont forget the guys who wield two weapons(never saw one). All in all the shields dominate in the sense of powergaming 50% imunity allways goes over a few points extra damage or two more attacks.

So the the solution is to give the two handed weapons imunities, not as high as the shields but a little. Also implement special blocking weapons for the offhand with also little imunities and lesser damage bonus. Let it also be only small weapons with less damage that not every guy uses them with a shield to get over the 50%.

What u think about that???

I think that way it would make a bit more sense to use two handed weapons or even dual wield.

[JesterOI]

Take the current damage bonuses for twohanded weapons and increase them by 50% for each IRL and double the massive crits.
In the case of a Great Axe:
MWork Iron = +1d4 slash, +2 peirce, +2d4 m. crits.
MWork Steel = +1d6 slash, +3 peirce, +2d6 m. crits.
E. Steel = +1d8 slash, +4 peirce, +2d8 m. crits.
E. Mithril = +1d10 slash, +5 peirce, +2d10 m. crits.
I. Mithril = +2d6 slash, +6 peirce, +2d12 m. crits.

For all that extra damage you are losing +6 ac, +25% immune, 15/- resist (to a second damage type, that's 2 damage types covered).

Do the same with weapons meant to dualwield, but put a script on them requiring that the player have ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting feats.
Better yet a script that unequips the dualwield weapon if a shield is equipped.

[satantrik]

Ultimately the trade off a twohander makes versus using a shield is damage for AC. The way things are now that trade off isn't much.

The problem with changing all size L weapons is that size S creatures using size M weapons are stuck with the same problems.

Proposal: Script a check in the equip routines (I'm assuming there is one for all the items as this is what checks for item level and adds attributes from job levels, etc.) that checks to see if the weapon being equipped is two handed for the wielder, if so, add something. I'm not sure what "something" should be. Maybe double the bonus damage and bonus crit damage or something else.

Feedback along these lines?

[TastyTreat]

I say that there should be a difference between the dmg bonuses between certain weapons. An easy way of regulating this is by simply having the dmg bonus reflect the weapon's base dmg. For example: daggers are supposed to be weaker weaps (1d4 base dmg) so they get only get a bonus of d4 (1d4, 2d4, etc). Clubs do 1d6 base dmg so they get bonuses of d6. A greatsword does 2d6 base so they get a bonus of d6*2 (2d6, 4d6, etc). This would go a long way to having different weapons doing their intended damage considering the way NS4 has so much dmg resistances. Just my 2 cents.

[GrieffShadowbane]

Its not all that bad fer a 2-handed weapon wielder. My char is a GS wielder. Sure you give up some resistance and some immunites but as far as AC goes, I can make my weapon master have just as much AC as a cleric with a shield simply because I can take a few lvls of rogue .

Every 5 tumble you get +1 ac. In the end that tumble goes a hella long way when fighting melee clerics. Also a weapon master can easily go over the /15 resistance put up by the clerics shield. On my old server they had /20 reisist belts that I had to deal with .

Point being, you can make a two hander WM be a hella good build by putting a few points in tumble and pump in the strength points .

[turtlehermit]

How bout to increase 2 handed and 2 weapon weilding you increase ac 1 point per say 5-10 skill points placed into parry and make parry an all the time skill.. This amount will not nearly be equal to that of a shield but you can at least attempt to stay up.

[AlienOverlord]

How about just lowering the shield immunities? They kind of screw monks who already have a hard time making up the 6 AC (and the potential 8 AC of full plate). The shields could be a step or two behind what armor offers for immunities. Like a level 13 shield would give the same immunities as level 9 or 5 armor.

I think the immnunities are a little out of control, even with high str you usually only do damage on a crit or from elemental damage.

[Mad_Bovine]

You all seem to forget Knockdown and Improved Knockdown. If your enemies can't hit you because you got an extra +4 to KD them, then you ARE dealing more damage. Just my opinion