SUMMON CHANGES

[Ryu Ironclad]

Lokey, by level 9 summons being the epitomy(I prolly spelled it wrong) of most casting classes, I mean that they are supposed to be the higest level, most powerful and henious spells that a caster can cast. The current summons do not reflect the power level they should be at, IMHO.

I found it, epitome - 2 : a typical or ideal example : EMBODIMENT <the British monarchy itself is the epitome of tradition -- Richard Joseph>

Thank god for webster online. LOL

The situation was my testing of the gate spell, in which I got a Pitfiend. I chose Gate, because it seemed to summon the most powerful summon. I gave the Pitfiend a maxed str, maxed con, Stoneskin, Imp Invis and Haste. I was in the Command Center in Daeron. In the libary where there is only one guard is where I tested him. He lasted for about 3 rounds or so. Smite evil might have something to do with it, but I get smited all the time and never seem to have any problems. Oh and yes I'm EBIL!

I then tested Summon IX, and kept casting it till I got the earth elemental. By the time I had gotten done buffing him as I did the Pitfiend and got him into combat, he threw a grand total of 2 rocks and then the summon ran out.....

Now the only thing I use a summon for is to cast him in the middle of an area where mobs are all spread out to get the mobs centered in one point so I can nuke them properly. So I guess they arn't entirely useless.

[HealingBreeze]

Ok, I understand that there were problems with summons doing all of the work. I understand that casters were leveling a lot faster than non-casters. I understand that balance is the focus of these changes.

The problem is that you've gone too far to seek balance, and created another imbalance. To fix this I suggest one of two things:

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Option 1:
Instead of bringing casters inline with melee, let's do the oppesite: Bring melee inline with casters. Return the previous summons. In response, make martial weapons have higher relative mods than simple weapons. Also, make exotic weapons higher in relative power than martial. Exotic weapons require an extra feat (with the exception of monk weapons) to wield, and their power should reflect the extra training someone puts forth to use them. This option goes back to a saying "If you find 2 knives, one sharp and one dull, sharpen the dull knife. Don't dull the sharp knife."

Option 2:
Improve the summons beyond their current level -- if you want the summons to be less offense and more support, fine. To do this, don't make them unable to hold their own; Make them into tanks. Keep thier current attack stats, but raise (double or even triple in some cases) their HP and give their AC some love. This allows them to serve their purpose - support and distraction. A summon doesn't need to kill an enemy, but they do need to last long enough for you to cast your spells in the enemy's direction.

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Also, I believe some of the problems lower level players are experiencing stems from two sources - the afore mentioned summon reduction and the loss of their familiars. People take some time to get used to a change, and a slow transition is better than a sudden, harsh one. By executing both changes at the same time, you made the transition much harder than it needed to be.



Anyway, that's my $0.02. Read, see if you agree with either of my options, and as always, flame away.[/i]

[Soleiyu]

I just recently started playing here, so i dont have any experience with the higher level summons. I just got summon crature IV and noticed the following; the 4th level summons have less attacks a round than the 3rd lvl summons, and do not to a significantly larger amount of damage. The biggest problem ive had so far though, is that the celestial bison, in leu of attacking, likes to stand in front of monsters and graze on the grass instead, even as they beat it to death. Even with the commands hotkeyed, i tried both spamming the command to have him attack, and waiting patiently between commands to no avail. Perhaps this behavior should be removed from his script completeley, unless it was your intention for this to happen.

Instead of using the lvl 4 summon, i have been using the lvl 3 create undead spell, they have considerably more hp, and just make better tanks in general. I'm not sure it is a bug but i thought it would be worth mentioning that upon examination, i noticed they have the feat weapon focus: longsword, yet they weild no longsword.

Anyways, just some stuff i thought i would point out..

[Spura]

I casted gate. I got black slaad. When I looked at his stats I was appaled. My lvl 20 mage(not PM yet) had 35 HP MORE than the summon. I also had more AC and I had 6 regen. He lasted one round(1) against 2 dwarf city guards.

Ok first of all, the summon's AC should be 10 HIGHER not 10 lower than his AB. Raise the damn AC, it is 25 for christ's sakes. And I don't wanna see lvl 9 spells summon stuff with less HP than I have.

Also don't call stuff black slaad if it ain't black slaad(536 HP, double speed, 45/+7, 30 regen and 20/- in all 5 elemental-quoted from epic level handbook). Of course I don't expect such a ridicilously overpowered summon, but name him death slaad lord and put +5 regen and 10/- in all elemental on him for christ's sake. 5 type elemental resistances and regen are trademarks for all slaadi.

Devs should use take a look into Epic level handbook for inspiration for bosses. Some of them are incredibly nasty(though most comes from abilities not in NWN and the DMs intelligence when using them). if you don't have the book take some time to P2P download pdf. Check out Atropal .

[Wen-Kai]

Took a quick glance around and didn't notice any mention of summon durations.

I'm a L20 cleric, and while the Summon Creature I-IX have the published duration of 24 hours, I notice that the actual duration gets shorter and shorter as the spell level goes up. Is this intentional?

My Animal/War cleric is now a pure north star melee lol.

[satantrik]

The calculations for the durations for the new summons are a little complex. But here they are the best I can simplify them (these may have changed recently as well, data is based on my most recent local copy):

All summons last a number of rounds equal to your caster level multiplied by a bonus that is dependent on the spell cast. If the caster's HD is less than the caster level (such as summons off scrolls and items) HD is looked at instead.

Summon I
Persistent Blade
* 24

Summon II
* 20

Summon III
* 16

Summon IV
Shadow Summon
*12

Lesser Planar Binding
* 10

Summon V
Greater Shadow Summon
* 8

Summon VI
Shades Summon
* 6

Summon VII
Planar Binding
Planar Ally
Mordenkainen's Sword
* 4

Summon VIII
* 3

Summon IX
* 2

Greater Planar Binding
* 1.5

Gate
* 1

Dragon Knight
* 0.5

(These "miscellaneous" summons have a default duration of 480 rounds)
Animate Dead, Create Undead, Create Greater Undead, Mummy Dust
Negative Plane Avatar (Cleric Domain Power)
Shadowdancer Summon Shadow
Blackguard Create Undead
Blackguard Summon Fiend
PM Animate Dead, Summon Undead, Summon Greater Undead
= 480 rounds

Extended Spell Metamagic multiplies the final duration by 2.

...

Hope that was enlightening!

[bongoblue]

I disavow all knowledge of the 450 hitpoint chicken one experiment produced as well.)

oh dear. Loki, you owe me a new keyboard.

Spit take is not an understatement...

Just joking... my keyboard is fine.

So, how about some piranha parakeets ?

bongoblue.

[Wen-Kai]

satantrik thanks so much for the heads up