The good, the bad, and the ugly

Hieroneus Maxim · Post by **Hieroneus Maxim** » Sat May 22, 2004 3:23 pm

I am currently playing a rog10/barb1/sd1 on the LA faction. Here are some of my praises and suggestions:

The good (just a few of the MANY)-
-large world to explore, very well done
-Death penalty is fair..enough to discourage dying but not too harsh. No penalty for PvP is also very good.
-XP rate. I thought it was a little slow at first, but with a good party you can get XP in a reasonable amount of time. However, I think it should maybe be a little faster at the first few levels so that you don't get killed by rats

The bad -
-need more quests?? After the job quests, I haven't found anything else. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough
-as a rogue, soloing is quite difficult compared to other classes (at least before I SD, but more on that later). Soloing is quite easy for some classes which means it can be difficult to get a party. Give monsters elemental resistances, high saves, etc. There are plenty of physical resistances, yet little protection against casters.
-need more/different items. I would like more variety in items that I can buy, like weapons that deal elemental damage or weapons that grant AC instead of damage increase. I'm not suggesting more powerful items for purchase (dropped items should be better than purchased), just more variety. I can't even get a simple ring of protection +1.
-item balance. I can get very high resistances to physical damage, yet there is no equivalent boosters to saving throws. Why can I get 40% resistance to piercing damage with purchased items, but I can't boost my fort save to save my life? Also, physical resistances granted by light armor shouldn't be as much as granted by heavy armor.

The ugly -
-Since I have SD, I realize how powerful HIPS really is. I only really need it for soloing and use it sparingly when in a party. But for an example, I took down a CR17 treesmasher with my level 12 guy. I really really hope it isn't removed because rogues seem weak compared to other characters of same level. However, it does need to be toned down.
-More on nerfs in my post on the "nerf" thread[/list]

AndrewCarr · Post by **AndrewCarr** » Sat May 22, 2004 4:25 pm

I agree with you on hips. It completely destroys anyone without high listen/spot. Adding a 2-3 sec refresh timer may work, since it won't allow people to totally destroy the rogue, but will let them get a hit or two off or a spell.

The Hasselhoff · Post by **The Hasselhoff** » Sat May 22, 2004 7:15 pm

I agree that HiPS should only be useable 1/round.
BUT, any PC that doesn't invest in spot totally deserves what they get.

After all, what kind of total moronic retard doesn't move away after the target uses HiPS and disappears?

Hieroneus Maxim · Post by **Hieroneus Maxim** » Sat May 22, 2004 9:09 pm

Unfortunately, not all classes have spot a class skill. In fact, only the ranger and rogue get spot. Yes, you can take it as a cross-class, but an SD's hide/MS will increase as a class skill thus outpacing the spot checks of those who take spot as a cross-class. Since hide and spot are opposed rolls (unless something has changed), cross-classing spot won't help at high levels.

And yes, running away is really the wise move.

DrakhanValane · Post by **DrakhanValane** » Sat May 22, 2004 10:12 pm

Classes with Spot:
Ranger
Rogue
Arcane Archer
Assassin
Shadow Dancer
Champion of Torm
Weapon Master
Dwarven Defender
Shifter
Dragon Disciple

Classes with Listen:
Barbarian
Bard
Monk
Ranger
Rogue
Arcane Archer
Assassin
Shadow Dancer
Harper Scout
Weapon Master
Dwarven Defender
Shifter
Pale Master
Dragon Disciple

Chimaira · Post by **Chimaira** » Sun May 23, 2004 2:01 am

The Hasselhoff wrote:I agree that HiPS should only be useable 1/round.
BUT, any PC that doesn't invest in spot totally deserves what they get.

After all, what kind of total moronic retard doesn't move away after the target uses HiPS and disappears?

It doesnt matter, only caster druids/clerics and shifter druids (all which have insane wis) have a chance to spot or hear a rogue.
Your right on the second part and I cant argue with that, the first thing I do when someone starts hipsing is run away and when they show up when they target me and theyre ready to attack, and I move away at the last second they appear but not attack, and theyre totally confused which gives me enough time to KD them. I think HiPS should be a higher lvl tho, its too good of a feat for 1 lvl of PrC. Dont even start about how weak rogues are, its available to all classes, dont get too surprised when suddenly 38 cleric/1 monk/1 SD and 38 sorc/1 pala/1 SD suddenly start poppin up and disappearing out of nowhere, and limiting it to 1 use a round wont fix it.

Hieroneus Maxim · Post by **Hieroneus Maxim** » Sun May 23, 2004 2:11 am

Notice how only 2 CORE classes have spot. All the rest on that list are PrCs. It is interesting though, I didn't realize so many of the PrCs would have spot.

I'm not exactly sure what happens when you don't spot someone but succeed at the listen check. Would someone care to explain? Will it keep you from getting sneak attacked?

AndrewCarr · Post by **AndrewCarr** » Sun May 23, 2004 2:25 am

you still see them with listen. i'd suggest listen instead since it'll let you see around corners and thru doors to an extent.

Æ · Post by Æ » Sun May 23, 2004 9:19 pm

It's not easy for a fighter or cleric or wizard or whatever to get that one shadowdancer level...

SD requirements: 8 hide, 10 MS, dodge and mobility feats

For any class other than rogue, monk or bard (ranger too?) to take hide and move silently as off-class skills they would have to spend two points for each 1 and could only have half what they could have for an on-class skill, so it would cost them 36 skill points just to meat the requirements (not to mention the 2 feats) and this couldn't be attained until at least level 16, but for HiPS to be effective, hide/MS need to be at least doubled to 20, at least, so if they were smart they wouldn't actually take that level until level 39-40 anyway so they could riase hide/MS significantly, at which time they'd be deadly, but there are plenty of measures other level 40 characters can take against them. I have no problem fighting HiPSers, even on tactical servers... just have to be fast with the mouse and attack the second they do and a fighter can go blow-for-blow with the shadowdancer. Mages have AoE spells to counter them and a cleric with maxed listen and trueseeing cast should see them. And there's always the option to just run away, like us fighters and rogues do from casters, someone in stealth mode moves at half walk speed...

Psycho Dordt · Post by **Psycho Dordt** » Mon May 24, 2004 7:38 am

when you take SD as a non monk/roge take 2 lvls, since that allows you to have evasion also, and higher Hide/MS
I must say that the 2 feats requirement are pretty steep since they are useless on anything not wearing a fullplate/shield

Spura · Post by **Spura** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:48 am

DrakhanValane wrote:Classes with Spot:
Ranger
Rogue
Arcane Archer
Assassin
Shadow Dancer
Champion of Torm
Weapon Master
Dwarven Defender
Shifter
Dragon Disciple

Classes with Listen:
Barbarian
Bard
Monk
Ranger
Rogue
Arcane Archer
Assassin
Shadow Dancer
Harper Scout
Weapon Master
Dwarven Defender
Shifter
Pale Master
Dragon Disciple

Shifter doesn't get listen!!!!

Terminal Insanity · Post by **Terminal Insanity** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:31 am

WHO CARES!!!

SD gets HiPS... mages get (The un-gimped Greater sanc plz)...
i could list it all again but i dont feel like listing every classes advantage (Yes... even Harper Scout has sweet advantages if built properly)

Gut one class and you have to gut them all... and then we will be left with a boring, un-eventfull, tactless, repeditive game.

DrakhanValane · Post by **DrakhanValane** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:37 pm

I just went by the chart in the HotU manual. :) It's quite possible that it's off on a few entries.

ATI · Post by **ATI** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:41 pm

Even though I've been owned by Timberlake with HiPS, I don't care much about it. It is a great way to help non caster classes able to compete in both PvP and in regular gaming. As for quests and such, still a very early beta, wait and ye shall receive

And I'm with terminal insanity, don't gimp SD's, don't jack the number of levels to make get eh bonuses for levels (for future comment that may occur on this post), and don't worry, things will get balanced as long as the core of the class is held intact.

Every class has adv's and disad's the key is to learn what those are