HiPS, Stun and Dev Crit

[mining]

You can get 120+ on a rogue/SD pretty easily; those do ridiculous damage + can beat a 120+ spotter in a 1v1 pretty comfortably; I saw the aftermath of some duels like this yesterday.

[Midterm]

I've never really understood or followed the hipser metagame, but here are some quick counters I can think of, that don't really require optimized builds:

1. Fear Auras - Dragon Shape, PDK. Even if they remained stealthed while feared, they won't be able to take any actions and your spotter will eventually find them and kill them (won't work if they run 20 monk). PDKs also tend to run a splash of paladin, making them hard to stun, and dragons naturally have high fort. (If more people ran fear auras, this might make Kender meta?)
2. AOE spells - Hellballs, predictive Implodes, Ice Storms.
3. Damage shields - while they won't protect you from missile weapons, it does make you less attractive to being attacked. Aura of Glory, Azer token, and that Druid spell (vine mine?) are some non-mage damage shields I can think of.
4. Clerics. Unless you can stun em, clerics are just stupid - never run out of heals.
5. Rumble Token - need to be creative with it. My favourite strategy is to pretend I'm running for the hills, camp a transition, then when they pop over for a looksie, give em the Ginsu. (your mileage may vary if they decide to go through the transition stealthed, in which case its a timing check)

[Tarias]

I did some duels vs Shamed yesterday, (top secret 120+ hide) rogue/sd beats a (top secret 120+ spot) zen archer pretty handily because it has much higher damage. A clr spotter will obviously beat the rogue/sd, but what else would you expect in a caster vs melee fight. Cleric/sd might have lower damage, but the trade off is that it pretty much only loses in a 1v1 to something like a harper stunner (another top tier spotter by the way, as is for example wiz/sd). The issue isn't just the 120 hide toons though. Pretty much anything with 5sd or 21 ranger and like 40-50 hide can beat like 80% of toons with almost no contest.

[Bargeld]

You can get 120+ on a rogue/SD pretty easily; those do ridiculous damage + can beat a 120+ spotter in a 1v1 pretty comfortably; I saw the aftermath of some duels like this yesterday.

Eh?

43 base
10 esf
3 sf
2 stealthy
=58

10 ghost
8 boots
7 cloak
7 robes
2 rings
4 owl scroll
2 black shield
=40

=98

54 dex = 22 h/ms
(which is not 'pretty easy')

=120

What am I missing?

(This toon has many more counters than the others on my list. The saves are going to be horrible. Like mid 30's.

[Midterm]

bard song mule

[mining]

You can get 120+ on a rogue/SD pretty easily; those do ridiculous damage + can beat a 120+ spotter in a 1v1 pretty comfortably; I saw the aftermath of some duels like this yesterday.

Eh?

43 base
10 esf
3 sf
2 stealthy
=58

10 ghost
8 boots
7 cloak
7 robes
2 rings
4 owl scroll
2 black shield
=40

=98

54 dex = 22 h/ms
(which is not 'pretty easy')

=120

What am I missing?

(This toon has many more counters than the others on my list. The saves are going to be horrible. Like mid 30's.

You're forgetting jobs, for one (+4 from MA, SL, TC), and black shield is 4, not two (though -1 shield, for +1 net). That gets you 125 hide before considering small size bonuses (since gnome doesn't get elf +2 spot, this one mostly washes out on the spotters side).

[Bargeld]

I did some duels vs Shamed yesterday, (top secret 120+ hide) rogue/sd beats a (top secret 120+ spot) zen archer pretty handily because it has much higher damage.

This should not have happened from a meta standpoint. One dispel and you lose 4 hide. The archer should have moved more, you should have never gotten close enough in stealth mode to hit. Also, on my list of top tier was div focused zen AA, not just a zen AA. That battle was an upper-mediocre vs an upper-mediocre imo... not a top vs top.

Cleric/sd might have lower damage, but the trade off is that it pretty much only loses in a 1v1 to something like a harper stunner

Yes, I forgot that one. I don't think I've ever seen one. I'm not so sure that it's very useful outside of their favored enemies. Personally, the only use I've ever had for harper is for an MA imploder.

(another top tier spotter by the way, as is for example wiz/sd)

That's a negative ghostrider. No wisdom = no top tier. Sure, you can cap your 50 spot, but you are still stuck with a feat base of 58 or 60 + 50 cap = 110. Without at least 30 wisdom, you can't hit 120.

The issue isn't just the 120 hide toons though. Pretty much anything with 5sd or 21 ranger and like 40-50 hide can beat like 80% of toons with almost no contest.

In an arena/duel yes. But in raid or open world fighting, like I said. Run away.
There are a lot of builds that you can say will 'beat 80% of toons with almost no contest'. That's why we have the concept of counters. The problem is the perception of HiPS as an 'I win' button. I think it's a matter of build better and play better.

[Bargeld]

And ya'll are forgetting all my criteria that I took the time to carefully lay out...
Self buff.
On the char sheet.

8(

But yes, jobs factor in. But as great and powerful NS deities have previously stated... 'job bonuses shouldn't make or break a toon'.

[mining]

The issue isn't just the 120 hide toons though. Pretty much anything with 5sd or 21 ranger and like 40-50 hide can beat like 80% of toons with almost no contest.

In an arena/duel yes. But in raid or open world fighting, like I said. Run away.
There are a lot of builds that you can say will 'beat 80% of toons with almost no contest'. That's why we have the concept of counters. The problem is the perception of HiPS as an 'I win' button. I think it's a matter of build better and play better.

Saying "You can always beat the enemy build by refusing to fight" isn't a very compelling argument; by that logic, everything is balanced so long as you can just escape. I don't think this is true; melee builds can be busted (e.g. imagine an 80 AB / 80 AC str build) and you can still escape - there's nothing about hipser that makes it less well suited to chasing than other builds. You only need to turn on stealth mode for about 1s to clear an action queue and get a free hit or two in.

[mining]

And ya'll are forgetting all my criteria that I took the time to carefully lay out...
Self buff.
On the char sheet.

8(

But yes, jobs factor in. But as great and powerful NS deities have previously stated... 'job bonuses shouldn't make or break a toon'.

I'm not. Self buff on character sheet w/ jobs (which every hipser faction except NC (good) and RK (no ghostwise anyway) get. You get another 5 self buffed on any HiPSer that actually exists in game.

[Tarias]

words

It was a div focus zen archer, which self buffs to 120+ spot tyvm. Spotting isn't the issue though, I'm not sure why you think the SD needs to be particularly close. He can just use sling or shortbow. If at this point you think I'm a horrible player, and you would beat the SD easily with this AA, I'd be more than willing to let you use my toon, and I'm sure Shamed would gladly take a few minutes to fight you.

As for the wiz/sd. It can get abj, div and evo focus. Which means that on top of it's 110-115 or so spot cap, it's going to strip all your buffs, and cast a big9 on you for -25 hide, effectively making it 135-140 spot.

Also if you want to focus on realistic PvP scenarios instead of 1v1 duel type fights, then self buffed sheet stats are perhaps not the most relevant measure.

[Bargeld]

I'm not. Self buff on character sheet w/ jobs (which every hipser faction except NC (good) and RK (no ghostwise anyway) get. You get another 5 self buffed on any HiPSer that actually exists in game.

Based on the shield (i said net +2, you say net +1) and jobs, it's only +3 more, so 123 with a 54 dex. "easy to do". pfft.

[mining]

I'm not. Self buff on character sheet w/ jobs (which every hipser faction except NC (good) and RK (no ghostwise anyway) get. You get another 5 self buffed on any HiPSer that actually exists in game.

Based on the shield (i said net +2, you say net +1) and jobs, it's only +3 more, so 123 with a 54 dex. "easy to do". pfft.

Net +1 relative to your calculations; +4 on the shield, -1 from using it. 125 hide with a scroll and a dex buff - and consider that small size benefits sneaks more than spotters and that sneaks can force new hide rolls whenever they like, and I'd say advantage is solidly on the sneaks side.


Re: the saves comment.
If I were to make a SD, I'd probably go for ~121 sheet hide (which is 125 vs elves), but gets
42 base fort w/ +7 vs spells
40 base will w/ +7 vs spells
[ plenty of reflex ].

I mean, sure, you can stun that, or you can barb roar it with a high DC, but those saves aren't exactly trash - you can also push the will up another 4-8 points using consumables and different items where barb is gonna be a big issue.

[Bargeld]

So 125, SOLD!

Still not 'easy'. And it's saves still suck. And a Neb will make it crawl.

[mining]

So we pit a dedicated spotter (zen AA) against a dedicated hipser (mcninja); HiPSer wins even when it can be spotted; was 2/1 overall. Admittedly, I think the AA would win every time if no consumables were used by a hipser, but I also don't think the archer could get the same spot without being vulnerable to said consumables.