Timer on transition

[Bargeld]

I've tried, really tried hard to make a usable BG smiter. Other toons are simply better. There is a lot to sacrifice for the one trick pony. I've managed to make one that is pretty damn nice though, it's a good melee'r even after the smites are gone (pet is awesome!)... problem is that it's 13 clc and is dispel-bait. And that really sucks cuz it takes forever to buff you and the pet. It can't raid and survive reliably, and it can't defend cuz it takes too long to buff and get to the cradle. Mostly useless except as a proof-of-concept.

[mining]

I find smiters in general to be 1 trick ponies that do a lot against their specific enemy. Paladin Smiters tend to have the redeeming feature of being full BAB with decent buffs - so respectable AB and AC - but regardless they lack except for making hyper-specific builds explode.

[hond]

Quote:
but i have to take bloody, vigilance, SF spot, and esf spot for a +17 total...Some faction have a nice +20 token ...4 feats its a lot of difference betweens 2 toons...

Hond, this one makes me laugh.. Try to ask around and are there any dedicated spotters that don't take those feats? Looks like you are the only one..

my english is bad, will try explain you with mathematic :
base spot 43 and + 9 wisdom mod (20 for stun requisit) 52 +17 (feats) :69 base +10 crafted helmet + 4 job: 83 perma spot (umbuffed or dispeled)
same toon with eye token (but no feat)
43 +9 = 52 base +10 crafted helm + 20 from eyes: 82 (dispeled)
Feats just allow you to pump cap higher...
i compare token with those feats, as they are not dispelable...making any junk toon spoter (CoT and RDD) with same potential as a UMD dedicated spotter (4 feats taken)
Also if you compare max spot 77 base , 107 is the undispel number for AO/NC toons, while 87/91 is number for the rest...

Considering all wear spot helm +10
what do you invest in order to cap your SpoT ?
- Cleric/wizard/sorc divination TS+CC (more feats) for a +40
- Umd ( +20 TS + 10 CC+ 4 job ) +34
- Any AO/NC toon (ts helm 20 +token 20) +40

That eyes token, just make easier and powerfull, AO/NC spotters, and a toon like paly CoT monk usualy weaker vs Csers /hypser, the best spotter of the server on zen archer version...or the stunner version potentialy max spot..
Caster don't need to take divinition compared with no token ones, UMD version cap spot and no need CC (short and weak spell), and a dispell will affect them less..
Considering also that RDD and CoT classes have access to Spot, and base of thousands builds, i can understand that speaking of nerfing token have to annoy you...

[Monkey]

Considering all wear spot helm +10
what do you invest in order to cap your SpoT ?
- Cleric/wizard/sorc divination TS+CC (more feats) for a +40
- Umd ( +20 TS + 10 CC+ 4 job ) +34
- Any AO/NC toon (ts helm 20 +token 20) +40

Great argument, Hond.

TC obviously needs a stackable TS token too, so that we can self-cap spot like your mages. We still wouldn't be able to have one caster easily buff others to the cap or self-cap after dying, but we can make up for that with our totally awesome armies of druids.

[rocketkai]

You still didn't get it. For that NC toon you cited, after capped +50 spot from gears/buffs, that toon only gets 112 spot.. that's not a dedicated spotter, although it perhaps can easily spot you corner sneak stunner with crappy hide/ms. But that only means something's is wrong with your own build. A dedicated spotter should have 120+ spot and preferably 127 (the max sills that you can get disregarding the environmental modifiers). In order to achieve that spot scores, you have to either max out your wis scores (and at least take epic spot focus) or have those spot feats. I don't want to be too harsh about you, but you just complain way too much and your attitude is very problematic. The attitude that lets nerf anything that I can't figure out to beat by myself after I played this game for a freaking few months and got like just 3-4 of lvl 40s is the one that bothers me the most. Try to play this game more time and build more builds not only in SL, but also in other factions, at least in your ally faction MA.

P.S. NC token only lasts like 4.5mins and you have to use it first in order to stack it with helm (which can be easily dispelled). The conditions to max out its utilization is very restricted.

Quote:
but i have to take bloody, vigilance, SF spot, and esf spot for a +17 total...Some faction have a nice +20 token ...4 feats its a lot of difference betweens 2 toons...

Hond, this one makes me laugh.. Try to ask around and are there any dedicated spotters that don't take those feats? Looks like you are the only one..

my english is bad, will try explain you with mathematic :
base spot 43 and + 9 wisdom mod (20 for stun requisit) 52 +17 (feats) :69 base +10 crafted helmet + 4 job: 83 perma spot (umbuffed or dispeled)
same toon with eye token (but no feat)
43 +9 = 52 base +10 crafted helm + 20 from eyes: 82 (dispeled)
Feats just allow you to pump cap higher...
i compare token with those feats, as they are not dispelable...making any junk toon spoter (CoT and RDD) with same potential as a UMD dedicated spotter (4 feats taken)
Also if you compare max spot 77 base , 107 is the undispel number for AO/NC toons, while 87/91 is number for the rest...

Considering all wear spot helm +10
what do you invest in order to cap your SpoT ?
- Cleric/wizard/sorc divination TS+CC (more feats) for a +40
- Umd ( +20 TS + 10 CC+ 4 job ) +34
- Any AO/NC toon (ts helm 20 +token 20) +40

That eyes token, just make easier and powerfull, AO/NC spotters, and a toon like paly CoT monk usualy weaker vs Csers /hypser, the best spotter of the server on zen archer version...or the stunner version potentialy max spot..
Caster don't need to take divinition compared with no token ones, UMD version cap spot and no need CC (short and weak spell), and a dispell will affect them less..
Considering also that RDD and CoT classes have access to Spot, and base of thousands builds, i can understand that speaking of nerfing token have to annoy you...

[hond]

You still didn't get it. For that NC toon you cited, after capped +50 spot from gears/buffs, that toon only gets 112 spot..

man ,you don't get the fact that 112 for a toon who don't get any feat and have no UMD/caster class. it's great...mean 122 with esf spot...you can spot 95 % of all the toon who hide with 1 feat investisment..
difference of tokens benefit betweens a faction is huge...Seems you don't want to get that idea...

P.S. NC token only lasts like 4.5mins and you have to use it first in order to stack it with helm (which can be easily dispelled). The conditions to max out its utilization is very restricted.

lol...do you know how long last a CC scroll for +10 dispelable only ??? 4.5 minutes is a long buff man ....
lol ... very restricted... you have only to buff token before TS...your spot buff is token + TS or TS + token...that's very restrictive??

[cRaZy8or5e]

You still didn't get it. For that NC toon you cited, after capped +50 spot from gears/buffs, that toon only gets 112 spot..

man ,you don't get the fact that 112 for a toon who don't get any feat and have no UMD/caster class. it's great...mean 122 with esf spot...you can spot 95 % of all the toon who hide with 1 feat investisment..
difference of tokens benefit betweens a faction is huge...Seems you don't want to get that idea...

112 spot = 43 ranks +10 epic skill focus +9 wisdom modifier +50 buffs and gear

That is with epic skill focus. Rocketkai was giving you the benefit of thinking that you don't have to have things spelled out.

122 spot would require blooded, alertness, skill focus and a +12 wisdom modifier to achieve, that's a truly dedicated spotter, ie. it would have to sacrifice a lot to get a wisdom modifier that high. IF you went that high you might as well max out wisdom and make a zen archer build, which is what most of our uber spotters are anyway.

I didn't want to point this out, mainly because I hate HiPSers already. I hate complaints about how HiPSing can be defeated even more. It's an absolutely ridiculous argument. There is a reason why the general thunderdome rule of thumb is you don't go into a fight with a HiPSer there, and it's because the engine stacks everything in the HiPSer's favor.

P.S. NC token only lasts like 4.5mins and you have to use it first in order to stack it with helm (which can be easily dispelled). The conditions to max out its utilization is very restricted.

lol...do you know how long last a CC scroll for +10 dispelable only ??? 4.5 minutes is a long buff man ....
lol ... very restricted... you have only to buff token before TS...your spot buff is token + TS or TS + token...that's very restrictive??

Carrying helms to enable you to buff immediately after casting the token (if you can't cast from a scroll like a cleric/CoT) is very restrictive. It takes two rounds to complete, between switching out helms and then casting and then switching back to your regular helm (crafted typically when you're fighting sneaks). I'd rather have the ability to cast scrolls, they're lighter and much easier to use.

In the best case scenario, when you know when an sd is coming and you have a cleric standing by with the orders "hey when we get attacked by the sneak, hit me with a TS as soon as you see me cast holy symbol" and then hope that they actually do it AFTER you cast holy symbol (sometimes they get in a rush, and cast before they see you hit your holy symbol .... excited I guess). A lot of times they screw it up. Or lets say it's a large force and your cleric dies (they're typically and rightfully targeted first) So he has to rest and your buff is removed and now you're stuck without it. But lets say there is a cleric AND a spotter there working in tandem to kill JUST you and they're very successful at killing you, well it took two to do it. Why is there an issue with that.

The point of all that is that it's never as easy as it seems. If you're smart hond you'll realize there are easy ways around the problem. Is it unfair that NC has a job token that allows them to more easily fight sneaks than other factions?

NC's only caster class is clerics. Clerics don't get all the cool AoE spells that sorcerors and wizards get which allow you to fight sneaks without being able to see them. Nor do clerics get the cool damage shields that arcane users get. Nor can clerics take the domains necessary to cap spot with spells AND get the AoE spells necessary to fight sneaks (ice storm) and get haste. Not to mention have the cross class to spot with. That's the only relevant argument to support why NC should get a job token that allows them to fight sneaks better than the other factions.

Do we have the ability to cap spot with one caster class. Well of course, but they won't be able to do much else. Are they a phenomenal support character? You bet.

However now we're talking about the investment of two characters to fight just one HiPSer, something not necessary with a sorceror or a wizard with the right spells memorized.

This is not speculation. This is experience. I've used a pure wizard to kill multiple sd's by myself and never saw any of them except when they were killing themselves on my acid sheathe.

Considering all wear spot helm +10
what do you invest in order to cap your SpoT ?
- Cleric/wizard/sorc divination TS+CC (more feats) for a +40
- Umd ( +20 TS + 10 CC+ 4 job ) +34
- Any AO/NC toon (ts helm 20 +token 20) +40

Great argument, Hond.

TC obviously needs a stackable TS token too, so that we can self-cap spot like your mages. We still wouldn't be able to have one caster easily buff others to the cap or self-cap after dying, but we can make up for that with our totally awesome armies of druids.

QFT

[rocketkai]

man ,you don't get the fact that 112 for a toon who don't get any feat and have no UMD/caster class. it's great...mean 122 with esf spot...you can spot 95 % of all the toon who hide with 1 feat investisment..
difference of tokens benefit betweens a faction is huge...Seems you don't want to get that idea...

lol...do you know how long last a CC scroll for +10 dispelable only ??? 4.5 minutes is a long buff man ....
lol ... very restricted... you have only to buff token before TS...your spot buff is token + TS or TS + token...that's very restrictive??

Crazy has already pointed it out for me. Said CoT only gets 102 spot, which is really bad for a spotter, without epic focus. Crazy also gave the example scenarios how restrictive it is to apply the NC token, if your TS buff kicks in before the token, you can get nothing from the token. How many C/C scrolls can you use in one battle? all my spotters that can use c/c scrolls got at least 50+ stacked on them.. Mentioning crafting scrolls, my toons with extra XPs could easily make ten thousands of c/c scrolls if I really want to.

[mining]

Worth mentioning: Since order matters, use of dispel can most likely be used to stop them from reapplying in combat easily.

[weasel423]

TC obviously needs a stackable TS token too, so that we can self-cap spot like your mages. We still wouldn't be able to have one caster easily buff others to the cap or self-cap after dying, but we can make up for that with our totally awesome armies of druids.

adding a non-div focused CC (bard) will get you the other 10 to max out spot. The fact remains that you can get to 50 without having to wear spot gear or taking 3 feats (div epic focus) but an SL toon needs to get 20 points in gear to max spot without a div focused caster.

[Bargeld]

Worth mentioning: Since order matters, use of dispel can most likely be used to stop them from reapplying in combat easily.

If I understood statements above this quote: token 1st, then TS helm. TS wears of and you are in the same situation: token first (already applied and still active) then TS helm. This should be repeatable for the duration of the token.

113 is roughly max/capped spot on an assassin with all the feats except maybe blooded. So 113 with a single ESF feat is definately a shortcut. The best balor I've ever had, with Div focus buffs and wisdom, caps at 109. Without getting into the specifics, 115 spot should see 95% of the toons except super hide focused toons like a trick clc or that drow form shifter thing that Neil used to use. 115 should be roughly 50/50 vs 127. 113 spot is definitely a decent score. To get it with 1 ESF feat is where we see problems from the other side of the fence. In order for us to hit that, we have to sacrifice so many feats. Then we have to take that toon and fight a smiting wrathing spotting toon that can melee OR range for massive damage. Even a CoT with wrath beats an AA, AND they can swap to sling for bludge for a minor penalty.

Defend it all you want, but I remember a DM/Dev sig that said something along the lines of 'if a faction token can make or break your toon, you built it wrong'. That is absolutely incorrect in this example. That TS token clears room for more feats and abilities than any of the other faction tokens could ever provide. You get a better build overall because you can skip basic feats and still end up with a respectable and usable spot score.

[mining]

The problem is that we don't have the ability to make it unapply, so its a moot point.

I could always redo the token, but then we'd need to wipe. Its something worth considering.

[Rufio]

115 should be roughly 50/50 vs 127.

Oh, no. The odds of spotting are much, much lower than that. Because it is opposed rolls, you only have something like a 15% chance of spotting.

[mining]

Gah! I didn't write that! Abort! Abort!

[Opie Crimeria]

To reliably see and hunt a good sneak; not an great one, takes roughly at least 115 spot; preferabley 120 or higher. There are a lot of situational modifiers that favor the sneak. I have had fought plenty of MASL and a couple of AO/rk sneaks walk right by me with my super super pal/monk/cot while I was fully buffed for spot and waiting for them; or I get owned.

And most of the time if it's a good person playing the sneak; worst case is they are forced away. Best case is the x/x/CoT is dead and useless to raise since DW is gone. Plus anything that is heavy CoT is beyond dispell bait. Lose any buff for spotting. Now have to stop, but on TS helm, use TS helm, put on spot helm and then wait for dispell again. And trying to use Bard or cleric (knowlede domain) for C/C is frustrating because casted C/C is extremely short duration with such low caster level.

Anything that is trying to spot will have to take most of the spot feats in order to hunt sneaks. There is no way around that; so I don't see why you think a corner sneak or hipser with mid 70's hide will have a chance against builds that are built to fight against sneaks with 110+ hide.

It's a damn b***h to fight a sneak with something that uses pure melee or ranged.