Assassins

[mining]

The problem with just scaling up hide/ms is that, yes, you can cornersneak like a god, but if they cover the corners, you can't do anything.

Anyway, to max out DC, you cap at what, 50 cap, 4 size, 10 dex (4 base, 6 magic), 43 ranks, 15 feats => 122 hide. Good, yes, but still comfortably within the 'not in combat' spottable ranges of a lot of stuff.

If we want to improve cornersneaking, I love x's idea. Making them move faster than at the same speed as a 30 monk would actually make cornersneaking feasible.

[Face_of_Bo]

Assassins get indoor HiPS? Hmmmm, if we are going to unbalance things that much then I might as well ask if strength based toons can take Dev Crit! (bet I get flak on this one) Assassins with HIPS defending the Relic Room, ouch!

WhiskeyJack {BoP}
Kalam Mekhar {BoP}
Laseen Surly {BoP}
Silias Ruin {BoP}
Screw Hammerfoot

[MtainEer]

This has to be a joke. If this comes to pass, then I will be taking a permanent vacation from NS4.

MtainEer

[mining]

Do people not understand the way death attack works? It doesn't proc paralyze on each hit, just on the ones you aren't in combat for. Assasains with indoor HiPS at 30 would still be less potent than hipsers like Mcninja, and much much less potent than stunning hipsers like, say, Tazerr in RR.
Yes, it seems crazy, and I thought so to the first time I heard it. Now... I'm not so sure. A 30 assasain gets 15d6 sneak die, not much more, and, wait for it, stunning fist, but weaker.


Actually, how about assasains get an onhit on their weapons that removes FoM and UV based on a dispel check, assasain level vs caster level

[Twiggy]

This has to be a joke. If this comes to pass, then I will be taking a permanent vacation from NS4.

MtainEer

sucks to be you then. this isn't any different than a sd/monk with stunning fist. (that build is out there)

i don't see how this would be a bad thing.

[Daral0085]

The DC on death attack is lower, granted, but I think in some ways it has to be lower because the effect is so much more deadly. You can fail a stunning fist and potentially recover. The only way to recover from a death attack is to have a caster with remove paralysis or FoM nearby (not sure if FoM removes paralysis retroactively, but it probably does).

[Daltian]

Isn't HIPS problematic as it is without giving it to more classes? I doubt something as uncreative will be given to Assassin. All this talk started when I said that assassins are weakest faction PrC in blackguard topic so I am not against strengthening them, but HIPS is broken as it is.

Also, if you give assassin hips, playing one wouldn't be as much fun anymore. And gameplay would be too similar to SD. I would like them to get something distinctive and fun. Keep them different but a bit more usefull/easyer to build.

[Cijah]

Assassins should not get HiPS for the same reasons others have raised.

I believe to make them effective they need a couple of things:

1. Away to make their attack more effective - it is situational in its use i.e. no combat music / victim not in combat.

2. Some way for the assassin to survive once their attempt is made.


My thought was the following:


1. As mentioned briefly in one of MM's posts - Improved Death Attack

Improved Death Attack I at level 10 (DC increase by 1)
Improved Death Attack II at level 16 (DC increase by 1)
Improved Death Attack III at level 22 (DC increase by 1)
Improved Death Attack IV at level 28 (DC increase by 1)
Improved Death Attack V at level 30 (DC increase by 1)


2. Blend with Shadows (Token ability)

This ability allows the assassin to merge back into the shadows. Number of uses per day is determined by Assassin Level/6. The effect of the Blend with Shadows ability is as per the Sanctuary spell with DC 10 + (Assassin Level/2 + Intelligence Modifier) with a duration of 2 rounds + 1 round/10 assassin levels


NOTE: This ability would replace the current Ethereal ability.

[Bargeld]

You can leave that idea of removing ethereal outside the door you came in. It's actually a nice ability even after the 1 (or 2) round of melee immunity. It adds some good residual stuff which have a nice duration. But no assassin would waste it as a buff before combat, it's purely a defensive measure when mortaly threatened.

Sanct is lame unless you can get DC of 50+. Except for the worst 5% of toons, everyone has 30-35+ will save, not including SC. According to your formula, max DC would be around 10 + 15 + 15 = 40 (with 30 int!). Thats stinks as a tradeoff for ethereal.

You don't want improved death attack which adds to DC. Trust me. As mentioned, you can get stun fists to clear 60 DC, but duration is only 3 rnds. There are other tradeoffs in the stunner build in order to attain this, regardless of the combo you take.

As for dispelling UV and FoM... thats kinda silly considering assassin is a UMD class that can mord fom away and gdispel UV from all but higher lvl caster buffs, which works just fine as-is.

The hide/MS scaling is still the best idea imo, since corner sneaking is skill based rather than ability based. It leaves the assassin to pick their terrain and their battles wisely and use it. That is most of the fun of a sin... creating and using opportunities, not due to a button clickable ability, but due to intuition, forethought, and ambush.

A summon is also a waste for a sin, since both para death attack and Lolth's poison require the target to not be engaged, and summons are notorious for stupidly engaging enemies. You would be dragging around a pet that couldn't hide on demand, helping the enemy to stay in combat, and ruins your ambushes. Sin's roll solo most of the time because even the most veteran partners can ruin opportunities to use their abilities.

[Daral0085]

Sin's roll solo most of the time because even the most veteran partners can ruin opportunities to use their abilities.

And based on prior comments from devs/dms, I think that's how they want the class to work. I think they want the class to be something that doesn't work very well in brawls, but kinda stalks around (think ambush in SL hidden tunnels, I know you've done it before), picking off people. Like a stealthy version of an AA (which tends to roam around in open maps harassing people).

On another note, Gemetzel is literally the only toon on the server that can consistently beat Diego. So at least we know spotter assassins are a good counter to hipser stunners.

/tangent.

[Jacks Revenge]

Just to throw this out, but death attack is broke, many times I have been engaged and an assassin still gets its death attack off. Just sayin.

[Merrip]

The problem with just scaling up hide/ms is that, yes, you can cornersneak like a god, but if they cover the corners, you can't do anything.

I personally see nothing wrong with this, you have the corners covered? Well guess what it is tactics vs that toon, like every corner sneaker, not great in all situations nor should they be.

[mining]

The problem with just scaling up hide/ms is that, yes, you can cornersneak like a god, but if they cover the corners, you can't do anything.

I personally see nothing wrong with this, you have the corners covered? Well guess what it is tactics vs that toon, like every corner sneaker, not great in all situations nor should they be.

Its not so much that its countered, its that its hard countered. Its like every enemy being totally immune to all spells for a wizard.

[Bargeld]

Then you've chosen to fight on the wrong battlefield.

Not only that, there are smart ways to play around this... pick the corner with the least visible enemies, preferably the farthest away from you, hide, then walk back around the corner where you are already hidden from the other folks.

Or use your racial or assassin darkness. Or use your free action spare invis token.

[mining]

Then you've chosen to fight on the wrong battlefield.

Not only that, there are smart ways to play around this... pick the corner with the least visible enemies, preferably the farthest away from you, hide, then walk back around the corner where you are already hidden from the other folks.

Or use your racial or assassin darkness. Or use your free action spare invis token.

It sounds rather like you're arguing assassin is balanced as is .

Yeah, extra hide/ms seems like the consensus then.

Also, Jack, do you mean stun death attack, or 'death attack' the words?

Stunners don't give up much to be effective. They can still pull 120s hide, HiPS, good sneak damage and respectable saves. Maybe they drop some damage for 61 DC? So what. Nothing is saving that.