Shifters Overpowered? Just Right? Glaring Weaknesses?

[Tsavong]

it has been discussed alot, but i'm pretty sure spot/listen can get higher than hide/ms. so no matter how sneaky you are, if your opponent plans and builds correctly they will always see you.

just look around the server...there are some serious spotter builds floating around. (120+ spot)

That is true getting high hide or listen if someone builds a spotter by putt in wisdom and a lot of spot feats they will see a hider and with buffs from a focused caster it is far easer to hit the +50 cap on spot than hide.

If you are going to hide and hide well you go ghostwise, dex you take every feat under the sun and get all the gear you can. If you want to spot you go wis you take feats and use spells and gear to get it up.

But if that drow shifter found a situation where rak for was better than drow form (say he ran into a good spotter and realized that form was not effective) then he could change forms to something else. SDs cannot, they just have to run away from that spotter. Another good example I can think of would be the following scenario:
Drow form clears SL cradle room and taps relic. Assassin logs in to defend. Drow form player knows it can be seen and so shifts to undead lord/fleshgolem/etc in order to avoid assassination and sneaks/crits. Currently the defense to this scenario is that an assassin just isn't the right counter class to it. But if it were the comparable well built SD, they would be screwed.

Rak is not all that great I've fort one or two with Warlock and won.

Also if the defender knows he is facing a shifter who normally uses a Drow but could change into something immune to him why is he logging something he knows wont work?

Yes shifters can do things which look cool like change shape but in the end most of them are built to use one or two shapes but I don't think there overpowered. The shapes were you don't need to be only druid + shifter might need tweaking and the Druid elementals still seem too good crit immune WMs and SDs are nasty to come across but on the whole they can be killed.

[alasteir]

Short response......I promise. As many people have pointed out, shifters aren't overpowered. They have many weaknesses that can be exploited, and they frequently are.
Take the Con series of toons, CoNabus, ConMoi to name a few. They seem to have decent hide/ms score, however, they can be spotted. At least that has been my experience. The problem for these two toons is the lack of versatility while they are sneaking, as they have the same weakness all shifters do......no scrolls, no spellcasting (aside from shifter abil.), etc. These toons are far from "overpowered".

I don't really agree on nerfing SDs either. In all honesty, SDs do not feel out of balance.....even the DM ones, such as Rocky DMZ. Every faction is more than capable of dealing with SDs. I know the NC and TC factions are. Spotter-type toons can be built without making them worthless at everything else aside from spotting, in fact, I can think of several from multiple factions.

I don't think Githzerai and Ghostwise Halflings need nerfed either. Githzerai are nice, certainly, but they have an ECL of 3....they should be tough. They are no more powerful than Githyankis, Svirfs, and Drow. I could see Ghostwise Halflings being assigned an ECL of 1 or 2, but if this requires a lot of developer blood, sweat, and tears, I wouldn't bother them with this.

The server feels pretty balanced as is. Almost all fights and relic wars are determined by sheer numbers of players, sound tactics, and good teamwork.

[frogofpeace]

I don't really agree on nerfing SDs either. In all honesty, SDs do not feel out of balance.....even the DM ones, such as Rocky DMZ..

You mean especially the DM ones ... O NO I DINT!!

I don't know about shifters - I don't fight a lot of shifters, and I've never made one. They seem to die just like any other toon, and the points about not havving scrolls etc. sem good ones.

SD's are devastating if your not prepared, meh if you are. Probably the case for shifters, too.

Bargeld's point about the diversity of shifter forms is probably the best one. I'm gonna have to kill rainswept twice next time I see him, cos I agreed with Bargeld

[Rufio]

They way shifter forms are now, they don't exactly promote diversity. It doesn't really benefit you to use multiple forms. If you use the non-feat forms for multiclassing, then there usually isn't much need to switch out of your chosen form, because you lose your weapon focus feats, and if you catered your stats for a particular form, you often will lose AC or damage by shifting into another form. You might be able to focus on 2 forms by taking multiple weapon focus feats, but shifters are already feat starved as they are in most cases. The special abilities of the forms aren't really worth shifting to use with very few exceptions like rak and drider, but if you are a multiclassed shifter, that means no rak form.

[Shadowalker]

You have all seen a few of my Twigs, would you beleive thier are 10 of them? 8 of them over 30. 9 of them focused on a single shape, though I do like to be seen in multiple shapes with each twig to keep twigs advesaries confused. The one not focused on one shape works solely on outsiders, and this has proven to be effective party support but the last one I would choice to deal with the enemy one on one or in small numbers, unless it was a solo SD. The shifters are fun for me cuase they are new, but an extreme pain in the arse to use in several respects, inability to do anything else while shifted for one, manuvering for two, and thats all the detail I goto on that.

Point in fact, during a recent DM event that a Twig was participating in, the hosting DM asked why I was doing somethign we all do every day, in the way I was doing it. My way being far more time consuming and bothersome, once I explained, they understood why I had to go to such lenths. (Thanks again for the event and for not sharing this weakness )

In playing my Twigs I am continually learning the key manuvers for each one, though I do often get them mixed up, downside to the Twig Decology. Each Twig, even those with same form focus, requires diffrent play styles. Are they effective in PvP? Yes, if I remeber what sort of toons to target with this paticular twig, or simply what role to play in the curent group of raiders/defenders. I contribute this 'effectiveness' as much to the fact that Im going on 2 years here and have been learning all the local Do's and Donts of PvP and toon construction.

I bring all this up, cuase it seams that thier might be some confusion as to the uesefullness of shifters swaping forms. We in TC have tried to build a multi form shifter. Man of Many Faces (TSS) for one, and we learned the same basic rule applies to shifters as any other toon. Try to do too much and your sub-par at them all. I havent taken the extensive time to lvl 8 ecl 3 twigs (other two are ecl2) just cause they are fun to RP (though they are). Nor are or will all 10 be great PvP'rs, but numbers on paper only tell you so much, so I had to build and work them to discover this.

Ive two regrets in this, one that I am often wishing I was on a diffrent twig when facing a paticular build (ive tried swaping forms, but aside from wpn focus and other specific feats, my str form twigs are always encumbered in other forms). Two that crazy didnt include me with his list of TC builders, "I Fart in your general direction"

[Rainswept]

You have all seen a few of my Twigs, would you beleive thier are 10 of them? 8 of them over 30. 9 of them focused on a single shape, though I do like to be seen in multiple shapes with each twig to keep twigs advesaries confused.

I know exactly where you got that idea... From Martin Prince.

[Shadowalker]

Love it Rainswept.. can that be my new signature?

[Rainswept]

Absolutely.

[Eldaquen]

Within a previous post I wrote something regarding shiney metal and swinging swords. That part about shiney metal and swinging swords was not the true point attempted to make. Rather a literary jest, which is being taken more seriously than intended. That portion is distracting from what I was trying to state which was an opinion that the number of items that improve hide/ms is what causing any SD build to be overpowered, if it is deemed that a hips using build is overpowered.

After reading this thread, I felt that another made a point that a drow shape build with 120+ hide/ms is overpowered, however other SD builds are capable of 120+ hide/ms. If the issue is 120+ skill for one build then should be an issue for all SD builds. So with my real suggestion to comment on that point, I added some nonsense to vent and make for an entertaining read, which only confused what I wanted to say.

Lesson in posting when tired and not editing it more thoroughly.

[Shadowalker]

No worries Elda.. last of thought is not a charatristic of your posts..

[Eldaquen]

Someone wrote somewhere in these forums that playing a shifter smart involves knowing when to use a shape and when to use another. I believe playing and building a shifter smart is utilizing its versatility. I was unable to find it, but believe a Dev or DM penned that post.

Regarding versatility of SD builds:
Other SD's have UMD or at least usually have access to include UMD in the build. UMD gives SD's versatility but granting access to a host of spells; shapechange, mords, ice storm, greater restoration, time stop, Negative energy burst, igms, remove paralysis, etc. If a raider SD clears a the cradle room in SL, hits cradle, and notices a known Assassin defender logged in, then due to UMD the raider also has versatility to use a unsneakable form by using a scroll. SD raider would also have time move far enough away, behind a corner, to shift or get far enough away when spell is about to end in order to use another scroll. A SD raider is even still able to hips in dragon or golem form. Yes taking a relic from cradle will strip a spell affect, so taking a relic while in shapechange spell is tricky and against veteran players unwise. However, running around a corner, deshift intentionally, when relic defeats get within range, wait for Assassin defender to get close enough, and fire off a time stop spell would give the SD raider more than enough time to grab relic and use another shapechange scroll before the defender is free from time stop.

Playing a SD build smarty involves more than just activating hips. If a SD build has no versatility then I would surmize it is so high specialized that even a well built spotter will have difficulty spotting it, when made by a great builder.

A shifter (without SD levels) is only able to hips in drow shape. Once changes to another form the ability to hips is gone, maybe corner sneak but that takes a experience and expertise to utilize affectively.

Playing a build smarty encompasses designing it, knowing how and when to use the features of a build.

When it comes to building and playing a SD, Bargeld I know your counted among the elite.

[Amoenotep]

did some....lets just say "testing"

max hide could manage was around 126...and thats with some pretty "not your run of the mill" gear.

i've verified a few player made chars from a couple of different factions with spot of 130+

so, how are sd's so overpowered you can never find them? regardless of drow shifter form or regular sd's they can always be found.

[cRaZy8or5e]

did some....lets just say "testing"

max hide could manage was around 126...and thats with some pretty "not your run of the mill" gear.

i've verified a few player made chars from a couple of different factions with spot of 130+

so, how are sd's so overpowered you can never find them? regardless of drow shifter form or regular sd's they can always be found.

Recon by fire

[Rufio]

You're doing something wrong tep, I can build something with 134 hide with standard hipser gear I'll pm you the build and calculations if you want.

I think the difficulty is that something with that much hide works against everything but the most dedicated wisdom-based spotters, but being a dedicated wisdom-based spotter doesn't help against anything but hipsers.

[weasel423]

What was the name of this thread again? I think someone changed the subject...