Shifters Overpowered? Just Right? Glaring Weaknesses?

[Eldaquen]

SD's are using a lot more weapons than kama's. Upper level short swords do not have a light source property, neither do rapiers. The point some seem to be have made is that a SD with 120+ hide/ms is overpowered. Not limited to shifters but any well made SD build. Part of the reason as discussed in this thread is the amount of hide/ms that is available from items. If SD with 120+ hide/ms is the issue, then perhaps an item nerf is in order.

[Eldaquen]

Haste and monk speed might be magical or supernatuaral however they increase the rate that the person's legs move. These have no bearing on the surface someone is running on nor change the noise damping properties of the persons footware or lack thereof. Hasted or monk speed cause one's feet to hit the ground more often in a short period of time and there would be increase noise from the increased repetition over a short period of time. Also the hasted person would have less time to avoid noise causing debri that is laying about on the ground. Just because their feet are hasted does not mean their eyes or mind are hasted improving the persons ability to avoid obstucles that would cause noise; alerting those around of the hasted persons presence. Aetheria is in ancient times, the roads and paths are not flat or free of debri as modern day roads tend to be. Also in the forest, or in the wild the hasted person would be more likely to step on twigs or sticks causing noise, or cause a ruslting of shrubbs and bushes around them as they move swiftly by.

Keep in mind haste does not improve the casting ability of arcane, druid, cleric, etc. Haste does not increase the rate that a person is able to think, just the rate their legs and arms move (feet for speed arms for added apr).

[Eldaquen]

There are many upper level items that do not have a light source, short swords and rapiers come to mind. Yes kama's do. The point I tried to make is if you cast flame weapon an a IA short sword there are flames all about the blade, but no light emminates from it. Flame would provide a light source.

[Eldaquen]

Changing hide/ms on items would affect shifters. Rufio posted earlier:

Hide:
21 dex
43 ranks
15 feats
10 ghostwise
7 armor
7 cloak
8 boots
2 rings
4 shield
4 one with the land
_____
121 hide

Take away +8 from boots, +2 from rings, and +4 from shield leaves 107 hide instead of 121 hide.

Not every property from items merge to a shifted shape. A druid dragon does not receive the damage properties of the druid's equiped weapon, only the + to ab is carried forward. Other than str, I do not believe properties on gloves or bracers carry forward to the shifted form.

I do not have a shifter. Never made one, in Aetheria or otherwise. Have druids that use elemental shape, wild and dragonshape. I do not have a clear understanding of the numbers obtainable in shifter shapes beyond those 3. Unable to give constructive feed back on shifter shapes since have never played one. There has only been one post in this thread showing a build progression and outcome of a shifter build. And that was in favor of leaving the shape unchanged. Where are the figures and progressions that support the opinion to change?

My statement was not siding with either side of the shifter debate. However responding to the voiced concern over shifters with 120+ hide/ms, which appears to be available to any SD build that is well built. If 120+ is issue for drow form then 120+ would be an issue or concern for any SD build. For me the issue seems to be with the number of items that give hide/ms; not with skill points or dex modifier available from a build.

I do not recall statements that wild shapes are overpowered, or that a non-SD druid elemental is overpowered. I recall that air elemental was widely used until it was nerfed. There are significantly less non-hipsing elementals in use now than there was before, so I do not believe the issue lays with druid elementals themselves.

Changing the items would affect both drow shifted form and SD's. I fail to see how this does not follow through. Changing items addresses the overall concern that a SD with 120+ hide/ms is overpowered.

[Bargeld]

I mean follow through with the shiny metal armors that glint in the light and creak as you walk, the swords that make noise as you swing them and emit light, the shields clanking around, etc. Shifters would not be subject to those things while your standard SD would.

The point of the shifter/druid drow form is not that the hide/ms numbers are better than a well built SD. The point is that they are very close to a well built SD, but that shifter has many more spells available to it than that comparable SD. It also has the versatility of other shapes. The argument that was brought up is that those other shapes are weak unless you have built especially for them. This simply is not true, they are weakER than a form that is specialized (example autoquickened rak with ice storm). But if that drow shifter found a situation where rak for was better than drow form (say he ran into a good spotter and realized that form was not effective) then he could change forms to something else. SDs cannot, they just have to run away from that spotter. Another good example I can think of would be the following scenario:
Drow form clears SL cradle room and taps relic. Assassin logs in to defend. Drow form player knows it can be seen and so shifts to undead lord/fleshgolem/etc in order to avoid assassination and sneaks/crits. Currently the defense to this scenario is that an assassin just isn't the right counter class to it. But if it were the comparable well built SD, they would be screwed.

A shifter has versatiliy and should therefore not be as good in any form as a non-shifter comparable 'well built' toon. They also have casting abilities (buffs) that other comparable builds do not.

And yes, weapon enhancing spells like the TC job token and flame weapon/darkflame DO carry over into your form. Let's not turn this into another back and forth like previously. Just test it and see.

[Bargeld]

And about the glove properties merging, go test that too. Things like discipline and AC do carry over, same with all other items. Just cuz you shift doesn't mean you are essentially naked and lose all your gear properies. You retain all of it with a few specific exceptions (dodge AC on boots is even doubled!)

[Mixtli]

My spotter will have 120+ spot and should be able to see most if not all hipsers. Once can get that high spot, but you need to sacrifice other things. Just like a hipser with 120+ hide/ms has to. Right now in pvp i dont see hipsers as the absolute dominating force. Quite a few ways to disable them. Again, I point out the elemental is the thing to look at.

The point of the shifter/druid drow form is not that the hide/ms numbers are better than a well built SD. The point is that they are very close to a well built SD, but that shifter has many more spells available to it than that comparable SD.

Rogue SD scrolls provide much more options. It is the reason nobody in TC plays drow form shifter.

[Rufio]

A drow shifter has almost no spells available to it.

The build I posted only has up to level 3 druid spells, cast at caster level 5. Really the only useful ones are camouflage, one with the land, bull's, neurtalize poison/remove disease, and lesser restore.

neurtalize poison/remove disease, and lesser restore you have to de-shift to use, so they aren't useful in most pvp situations.

and Bull's doesn't really help a dexer that much.

So you have 2 spells that are going to be useful, at caster level 5 no less. UMD or a dip into sorc, wiz, or cleric is going to get you a lot more than that.

[cRaZy8or5e]

but that shifter has many more spells available to it than that comparable SD.

Once they are in their shifted shape they don't have access to any scrolls or spells or even a ranged wpn.

It also has the versatility of other shapes. The argument that was brought up is that those other shapes are weak unless you have built especially for them. This simply is not true, they are weakER than a form that is specialized (example autoquickened rak with ice storm).

Shifting on the fly is not impossible, but rarely does it behoove a shifter to try and shift in combat.

But if that drow shifter found a situation where rak for was better than drow form (say he ran into a good spotter and realized that form was not effective) then he could change forms to something else. SDs cannot, they just have to run away from that spotter. Another good example I can think of would be the following scenario:
Drow form clears SL cradle room and taps relic. Assassin logs in to defend. Drow form player knows it can be seen and so shifts to undead lord/fleshgolem/etc in order to avoid assassination and sneaks/crits. Currently the defense to this scenario is that an assassin just isn't the right counter class to it. But if it were the comparable well built SD, they would be screwed.

This is an excellent argument for what makes shifters unique. They are the PRC for TC and should have some unique abilities that allow them to "shift" in order to meet different challenges. This is especially true when they can anticipate conditions. However shifting on the fly in combat (while possible) is not nearly as easy as you make it seem.

A shifter has versatiliy and should therefore not be as good in any form as a non-shifter comparable 'well built' toon. They also have casting abilities (buffs) that other comparable builds do not.

This is just bogus. They don't get buffs that are just better than what other sd's can get. And any buff that a shifter can get a rogue can use (probably at about the same caster level or greater as most druid buffs that a shifter receives are of comparably low level)

And yes, weapon enhancing spells like the TC job token and flame weapon/darkflame DO carry over into your form. Let's not turn this into another back and forth like previously. Just test it and see.

We've always known that they carry over. I must have missed it that somebody said these didn't carry over.

And about the glove properties merging, go test that too. Things like discipline and AC do carry over, same with all other items. Just cuz you shift doesn't mean you are essentially naked and lose all your gear properies. You retain all of it with a few specific exceptions (dodge AC on boots is even doubled!)

glove damage and ab don't carry over into dragon form. BUT dragon form AB and damage is better without the gloves so imo the fact that they don't merge is irrelevant.

[Rainswept]

If we want to discuss hipsters as overpowered, we could use a separate thread, as opposed to this kind of "not my shifter! look over there!" approach.

Whether either are "the absolute dominating force" is really not the point at all. Nerfs on this server don't come because some class is "absolutely dominating" they come because something is very strong, works, and lots of people are using it. whether you like that as a standard for nerfing, that's what the standard has been established as.

Look at the recent nerfs, do you really think barbarians were "absolutely dominating" because of their DR? Were heal kits making people "absolutely dominating?" Were mages with high AC so powerful noone could kill them? Of course not. Things have long been nerfed for far less than the things Shifters can do.

Also, gods forgive me, I have to agree with Bargelds last double post. I should be killing that guy, not agreeing with him. Have to kill him twice next time I see him just to feel less dirty.

[Bargeld]

Yeah you missed elda's previous recent posts, that's what I'm referring to.

And I don't expect a shifter to shift on the fly in combat, but it only takes 2 rounds (maybe 3 if you are slow or queue wrong) to change a form. You can get 1 of those rounds by running behind a corner. The point is not about the drow form vs rouge/SD specifically. My SD has the 72 ac/epic dodge/45 sr too, but no scroll use at all. The rogue SD should have significantly less saves than Laufer as well as the drow (this was shown earlier when they had -2fort or reflex and -7will when compared shifter vs rogue SD). Yes these builds are very comperable, some have benefits in one area and the other has benefits in another, but overall the shifter gets the versatility of multiple forms. A focused form with all it's pluses and negatives in that form vs a top tier build with all of it's plus/negs and they are pretty even. BUT the shifter still gets like 12 other forms to choose from, the other build does not. I would think that the goal would be to force the player to play a shifter smarter rather than just make the class have a bunch of forms that, when focused, are equal to other top tier builds. This is kinda the argument that others have presented, saying that building a good shifter is just too easy.

The factional PRC argument is bogus because Assassins are great against many opponents from certain factions and horrid against other factions. Shifters can be good vs builds from ANY faction and not specifically weak vs a majority of builds from any one faction. (I based this on the fact that almost any shifter can use the proper formS , and there are a lot of em, to gain complete immunity from the poison of Lolth. I would even go so far as to say that a large majority of NC toons have some pally or CoT, easily letting them save vs the poison. Add to that both those classes get bonuses vs evil and it significantly reduces the effectiveness of the SL PRC vs a majority of NC toons. Saying that a shifter is TC's PRC and should therefore be uber is just silly. It should be good vs some and weak vs others just like the rest of us. But they aren't just 'pretty good' overall, they are 'exceptional' overall. Hence the need for a good nerf whacking.

Finding the right stuff to nerf is the hard part because of the ripple effect due to the multitude of options. Nerf one form and it has collateral nerf effects on another form. Obviously, we still have no good suggestions overall to fix the problems and we are still rehashing the same ole crap.

[cRaZy8or5e]

And I don't expect a shifter to shift on the fly in combat, but it only takes 2 rounds (maybe 3 if you are slow or queue wrong) to change a form. You can get 1 of those rounds by running behind a corner. The point is not about the drow form vs rouge/SD specifically. My SD has the 72 ac/epic dodge/45 sr too, but no scroll use at all. The rogue SD should have significantly less saves than Laufer as well as the drow (this was shown earlier when they had -2fort or reflex and -7will when compared shifter vs rogue SD). Yes these builds are very comperable, some have benefits in one area and the other has benefits in another, but overall the shifter gets the versatility of multiple forms.

I think its important to clarify here. The way I'm reading your post, you're making it seem that a shifter can shift into a multitude of forms that are all relevant in pvp. This is just not true. IF a shifter focuses in one form, the other forms don't equal other top tier builds not even close. They do get some cool tricks with some of those forms, but they're not as powerful as people make them out to be. The versatility of different forms is only really relevant when a shifter takes the epic feated forms (ie undead shape, which is rarely used in large melees because guess what spell is cast by enemies as well as friends, mass heal) where it gets real immunities and or abilities. But then they must be a druid shifter build and they must take feats in order to acheive those forms.

A focused form with all it's pluses and negatives in that form vs a top tier build with all of it's plus/negs and they are pretty even. BUT the shifter still gets like 12 other forms to choose from, the other build does not.

yes the other build does not, nor does it need multiple shapes. This is essentially saying "they got tricks that I don't and its not fair."

I would think that the goal would be to force the player to play a shifter smarter rather than just make the class have a bunch of forms that, when focused, are equal to other top tier builds. This is kinda the argument that others have presented, saying that building a good shifter is just too easy.

You can't build a shifter to make every form the equal of top tier builds. IF they're smart, they can build to make one form the equal of other top tier builds.

The factional PRC argument is bogus because Assassins are great against many opponents from certain factions and horrid against other factions. Shifters can be good vs builds from ANY faction and not specifically weak vs a majority of builds from any one faction. (I based this on the fact that almost any shifter can use the proper formS , and there are a lot of em, to gain complete immunity from the poison of Lolth. I would even go so far as to say that a large majority of NC toons have some pally or CoT, easily letting them save vs the poison. Add to that both those classes get bonuses vs evil and it significantly reduces the effectiveness of the SL PRC vs a majority of NC toons. Saying that a shifter is TC's PRC and should therefore be uber is just silly. It should be good vs some and weak vs others just like the rest of us. But they aren't just 'pretty good' overall, they are 'exceptional' overall. Hence the need for a good nerf whacking.

Every other faction but NC/TC have mages, which can be good against any build. I know this to be a fact. When I stated that this was the TC PRC I wasn't trying to make the argument that their PRC should be good against any build and I don't believe they are good against any build. That's just a blatant untruth. You CAN"T build a shifter to counter everything. It's an impossibility. I know this to be true because if it were possible? One of those builder nuts in TSS (alasteir, rufio, or mining monk to name a few) would have found a way by now.

Finding the right stuff to nerf is the hard part because of the ripple effect due to the multitude of options. Nerf one form and it has collateral nerf effects on another form. Obviously, we still have no good suggestions overall to fix the problems and we are still rehashing the same ole crap.

I think I had a great suggestion , make it more difficult (require more levels) to acheive the epic wildshapes and humanoid shapes so their ability to multiclass is nerfed (and you don't have epic dodging str builds running around, hopefully. That would be a hilarious oxymoron/contradiction in terms, if it weren't true )

[Bargeld]

Just a quick response

I think you are understanding part of my stuff wrong... I mean that you can pick a shifter and pick a focus and then be uber. There are many choices to focus in, and therefore many different uber final builds. I agree there is no uber shifter, which is focused in everything. But even a focused shifter has options.

In mass PvP i can agree that this ability isn't particularly useful. But if you were to do a round robin/king of the hill, this is where it would shine. Sometimes it's one toon chasing one other... its not always a mass frey.

[Rufio]

this was shown earlier when they had -2fort or reflex and -7will when compared shifter vs rogue SD

Actually my rogue sd that I statted out had 2 MORE fort and 7 MORE will than the drow shifter I statted, due to more available feats.

[Amoenotep]

i seen Con Moi's hide/ms points...respectable

i also seen his saves.....aaahahahahahaha