Epic Mage Armor nerf........

[Bargeld]

Btw. we always target mages first, because they are the most dangerous enemy in raids. And they go down fast too, if they try to flee.

Admit the truth... you are scared of the bigs & igms & mords and really nothing more.

The meteor storm/fireball/evasion route... most of those blind our (drow/smurf) casters.

[Nyeleni]

Well the high-reflex saves are going to be a problem for as long as this server favors dexers. And yes, a ton of builds will have evasion, due to the number of rog or SD types. Even so, there are a lot of builds out there without evasion, namely pure bards, fighters, barbs, pallies, some varieties of WMs, clerics, even the much vaunted CoTs don't get evasion, so the pally/CoTs, etc, etc.

A lot of these builds are dexers so they get good reflex saves, but even with good reflex saves you still take half damage from fireball, etc. You could probably make it work if you put enough thought into it.

Emm, Monks do have evasion too . That means most CoTs will have it.

[Bargeld]

Besides, damage output isn't usually the issue, nor the topic of the thread... its mage survivability. Evasion doesnt effect 1/2 of an ice storm or any or any of a horrids.

[Cyrian]

damage is a big part of mage survival.

[Daral0085]

Well the high-reflex saves are going to be a problem for as long as this server favors dexers. And yes, a ton of builds will have evasion, due to the number of rog or SD types. Even so, there are a lot of builds out there without evasion, namely pure bards, fighters, barbs, pallies, some varieties of WMs, clerics, even the much vaunted CoTs don't get evasion, so the pally/CoTs, etc, etc.

A lot of these builds are dexers so they get good reflex saves, but even with good reflex saves you still take half damage from fireball, etc. You could probably make it work if you put enough thought into it.

Emm, Monks do have evasion too . That means most CoTs will have it.

If you throw in monk, sure, I was thinking more of pally/CoT (which I listed), cleric/CoT, fighter/CoT, etc.

[LinuxPup]

I've seen great thunderclap be really effective in PvP, as well as horrids... grease too. When things get really heated, timestop provides a nice escape.

[Shamedmonkey]

Besides, damage output isn't usually the issue, nor the topic of the thread... its mage survivability. Evasion doesnt effect 1/2 of an ice storm or any or any of a horrids.

Mages die quickly because everyone knows when left alone they will wreck you. They're glass cannons, so to speak. If you want survivability take auto still and grab a shield.

[Bargeld]

or a scythe, 2 books and some monk bg lvls

and that completes yet another round robin on the topic

[Rufio]

none of the NC imploders with a 48 implode have a single monk level, and they have some pretty crappy acs

Well they have full discipline bonuses, because they resist pure fighters who spam KD with 65 ab. I don't know what other class combo would be a smart choice for disc with clc. And about the outrunning part... and no shield w/ robes?

There is only 1 possible way to have a DC 48 implode and autoqicken III, and it isn't clerc/monk.

or a scythe, 2 books and some monk bg lvls

and that completes yet another round robin on the topic

This doesn't make sense, a scythe won't increase your survivability. a scythe doesn't have damage reduction, and it is str based, so it is stupid to expect to have a through-the roof AC, not to mention it has nothing to do with casting. If the only way you know how to get good saves is by taking blackguard levels, then you are doing something wrong.

[burrahobbit]

23 pages here we come......

This is directed at no-one in particular, i am guilty of making many mistakes playing my sorc's and have taken many respawns and donated plenty of staffs to disarming melee toons. The reason i was killed was because i made mistakes, not because its imposible to play a mage effectively in pvp.

The reason your mages die fast is probably because of 3 reasons:

1) You dont play them nearly as well as you think you do, (just like me)

2) If you dont target mages and clerics first in pvp fights your an idiot and deserve to lose.

3) Mages take some talent to play. Maybe you have no talent, although i am sure your mothers still think your special. My mommy still thinks i am special, and she said i am the best looking kid in my class.........

The only point i have taken from the last 20 pages that is also of great annoyance to me is in mage vs mage fights. Most of the time it is a race to cast the first bigby.

My answer: So what. it used to be a race in bard vs bard fights to see who could curse first, wich pure fighter hits the first rumble, wich barb hits the first roar, wich clc casts the first wof blah blah blah. I guess its a snooze you loose deal.


Conclusion: mages dont suck, people playing the mages do.......

mages die first because thats what people attack first......

[Alkapwn]

23 pages here we come......

This is directed at no-one in particular, i am guilty of making many mistakes playing my sorc's and have taken many respawns and donated plenty of staffs to disarming melee toons. The reason i was killed was because i made mistakes, not because its imposible to play a mage effectively in pvp.

The reason your mages die fast is probably because of 3 reasons:

1) You dont play them nearly as well as you think you do, (just like me)

2) If you dont target mages and clerics first in pvp fights your an idiot and deserve to lose.

3) Mages take some talent to play. Maybe you have no talent, although i am sure your mothers still think your special. My mommy still thinks i am special, and she said i am the best looking kid in my class.........

The only point i have taken from the last 20 pages that is also of great annoyance to me is in mage vs mage fights. Most of the time it is a race to cast the first bigby.

My answer: So what. it used to be a race in bard vs bard fights to see who could curse first, wich pure fighter hits the first rumble, wich barb hits the first roar, wich clc casts the first wof blah blah blah. I guess its a snooze you loose deal.


Conclusion: mages dont suck, people playing the mages do.......

mages die first because thats what people attack first......

well said

[Cyrian]

even though i'm inclined to agree with burra simply because i know first hand he's a good player (or good builder at least), i still don't think the topic should be written off on the basis that "most people are noobs"

just saying, things would never change if that argument was always right.

[Daral0085]

Well the problem is that you're interfacing "certain players" with "certain classes" and then matching them off against each other. So since the only thing you see at the end of the day is one person with one toon killing another person with another toon, it can be very difficult to discern whether it's a bad player/builder, or it's a weaker set of classes that player is using. Many of the posts in this thread implicitly reference this problem: is a construct shifter unbalanced, or are the TC builders just very intelligent with what they have? It would require controlled experiments to be able to make any scientific statements, so as far as I know the devs just use their best judgment, intuition, and so forth, while at the same time announcing changes in such a way as to maximize player discontent, to the amusement of many.

But in any case, mining's build is a great example of this principle: is a 93 AC mage unbalanced, or is it just incredibly well built? What if it's possible to build a 95 AC RDD and simply nobody's figured out how to do it? Would that make the mage well balanced, since there are other theoretical, but undiscovered, builds that would counter it?

Alternatively, you can try passing around your hat and see what handouts you get. That seems to be the direction of this thread, but hey, do what works.

[Cyrian]

well, most people discern that by listening to the players who experience it. im sure this server wouldn't have the number of players it has if the staff was just doing some gnarly guesswork.

where's gary gygax when you need him?

[Bargeld]

Yeah i think this horse is dead simply because the claims now being made are way off-target and are becoming less and less truthful. I honestly don't want to start throwing out the details to builds for the purpose of proving others wrong. The player vs the build argument is just plain silly imo. The more recent posts about the 93 ac this vs the 98 ac that, some of us already know them. Some of us have already built them. Often times they never make it into the public eye because the creators don't want to incite the obvious nerf. Other times an enemy will build an OP build to prove a point that something really SHOULD get nerfed.

OP builds don't become much of an issue until they become moderately popular, which is exactly where this all began. A couple scything/battleaxing mording tensor monk sorc bgs on the opposite ends of the battlefield made it glaringly obvious that something was 'broken', for lack of a better word. The EMA nerf that was dished out to address certain builds has the unfortunate side effect of crippling a decent ability for the non-specialized builds. Similar happened with the PM nerf, but you didn't hear many complaints cuz the impact on the playerbase wasn't as big.

For me, the devs have heard all they need to hear and the sad truth is that this particular situation has no 'good' solution. It's kind of like the problems with tweaking shifters so they are just right. One change to an OP ability on one build always has a ripple effect. I'd love to see and hear a good solution to the EMA/EW issue, but i think we can all agree that it won't a be a community contribution that spurs it to happen.

/imdone