Epic Mage Armor nerf........

[OpalimTeGolim]

And cleric/wm can hit higher ac and ab than wiz/wm. And they can heal and spam harm while in heavy armor. And every faction has them. Now, how stupid that must be?
Tensers can be dispelled. That is the first thing you do when you see any toon, not just wiz/wm.
As for the versatility of spells, check renard's "how-to" post for building a toon that will save any spell which allows for save.

How many wizards have you built in last 6 months? I'm asking because your description of what wizard should be able to do is so different than my (and ppl I play with) understanding of what wizard should be able do. I don't think they should be just buffers for melee toons.

[Shamedmonkey]

And cleric/wm can hit higher ac and ab than wiz/wm. And they can heal and spam harm while in heavy armor. And every faction has them. Now, how stupid that must be?
Tensers can be dispelled. That is the first thing you do when you see any toon, not just wiz/wm.
As for the versatility of spells, check renard's "how-to" post for building a toon that will save any spell which allows for save.

How many wizards have you built in last 6 months? I'm asking because your description of what wizard should be able to do is so different than my (and ppl I play with) understanding of what wizard should be able do. I don't think they should be just buffers for melee toons.

Nightshift is a Wiz/SD (not level 40 yet, though) with epic focuses in Divination and Abjuration. He functions primarily as a spotter for SDs and a dispeller. He's very good at that role, and when he needs to he has no problem shifting into damage mode with Horrid Wilts and PWKs.

[VagaStorm]

And cleric/wm can hit higher ac and ab than wiz/wm. And they can heal and spam harm while in heavy armor. And every faction has them. Now, how stupid that must be?
Tensers can be dispelled. That is the first thing you do when you see any toon, not just wiz/wm.
As for the versatility of spells, check renard's "how-to" post for building a toon that will save any spell which allows for save.

How many wizards have you built in last 6 months? I'm asking because your description of what wizard should be able to do is so different than my (and ppl I play with) understanding of what wizard should be able do. I don't think they should be just buffers for melee toons.

Maybe, my favorite cleric/wm build have less ac than my tenzor tank, but with 8 points better ab, he can manage :p

[Lokey]

A mage's job is not to be attacker most of the time, it's to be debuffer and party support.

Now, all we need is PnP Enervation.

Split ray and the ray version of arcane reach too (AKA "Hai, you and all your friends within 30' lose 20odd levels")

[mining monk]

A mage's job is not to be attacker most of the time, it's to be debuffer and party support.

Now, all we need is PnP Enervation.

Split ray and the ray version of arcane reach too (AKA "Hai, you and all your friends within 30' lose 20odd levels")

Ahhh... Good times...

Do it. Now.

Would make mages far more versatile. Then they can own completely any build without UEF

[burrahobbit]

And cleric/wm can hit higher ac and ab than wiz/wm. And they can heal and spam harm while in heavy armor. And every faction has them. Now, how stupid that must be?
Tensers can be dispelled. That is the first thing you do when you see any toon, not just wiz/wm.
As for the versatility of spells, check renard's "how-to" post for building a toon that will save any spell which allows for save.

How many wizards have you built in last 6 months? I'm asking because your description of what wizard should be able to do is so different than my (and ppl I play with) understanding of what wizard should be able do. I don't think they should be just buffers for melee toons.

You dont need tensors up to hit a cleric wm in heavy armor.

As far as what wizards are capable of, i dont wanna sound like a jerk here but you just havent figured out how to do it.

[renarð]

I was trying to refrain from posting, but the idiocy of the posts sucked me back in.


In response to how clerics only have 60ac:

Clr with divine shield is 70 ac
Clr with monk is 70+ as well

This isn’t even using a gith for 4 dodge ac.

If clerics aren’t building for 70ac, I think it might be something to do with the fact that they have 160 hp more as well as the fact that they can heal themselves and use shields (extra DR).


I have yet to see a detailed post on how a wizard is supposed to kill toons that have high saves and evasion. Responses have been:

1) Lol l2p
2) You aren’t supposed to kill anyone
3) You can’t really get your saves that high
4) Horrid wilting is da bomb
5) You can get higher than 48 DC you nub
6) Lets pretend they don’t have high saves and talk about how to kill them.
7) Prismatic spray may have an undocumented change that requires epic spell focus but I don’t wanna talk about it


In response to how 60ac isn’t enough to survive, responses have been:

1) Clerics do it (see above)
2) Use your spellz so no one touches you
3) My hipser does just fine

[Rufio]

everyone is wrong.

[burrahobbit]

I was trying to refrain from posting, but the idiocy of the posts sucked me back in.


In response to how clerics only have 60ac:

Clr with divine shield is 70 ac
Clr with monk is 70+ as well

This isn’t even using a gith for 4 dodge ac.

If clerics aren’t building for 70ac, I think it might be something to do with the fact that they have 160 hp more as well as the fact that they can heal themselves and use shields (extra DR).


I have yet to see a detailed post on how a wizard is supposed to kill toons that have high saves and evasion. Responses have been:

1) Lol l2p
2) You aren’t supposed to kill anyone
3) You can’t really get your saves that high
4) Horrid wilting is da bomb
5) You can get higher than 48 DC you nub
6) Lets pretend they don’t have high saves and talk about how to kill them.
7) Prismatic spray may have an undocumented change that requires epic spell focus but I don’t wanna talk about it


In response to how 60ac isn’t enough to survive, responses have been:

1) Clerics do it (see above)
2) Use your spellz so no one touches you
3) My hipser does just fine

I guess its because we dont have to tell you how to play the game. Make yourself a wizard killing machine and i will thunderdome you and you can learn what wizards can do that way.

Where is SDH these days anyway?

[weasel423]

Holy crap 12 pages!!!!

[Shadowalker]

What was the question?

[Amoenotep]

the question is how does a char with 70ab miss a mage with 75ac when he consistently rolles 10+ on his attack rolls

[OpalimTeGolim]

The answer is magic! After all, wizards are all about it, right

I'm sure that if wiz can do that, there are some other things he can't do. Ask Cyclene, Dr. McNinja or Balmung (did I write his name correctly?) how to hit/kd and kill high ac wizard. Or those guys who spam shield faster than anyone can remove it. Or monk relic runner who pity the fool who uses IGMS. Or druid dragon who I can hit with IGMS only in my dreams. There are so many ways to neutralize high ac wiz, it's hard to describe.

You always need to come up with a smart and unexpected way to fight (use inteligence, right).
IMO, that is what makes fighting so interesting. Why limit fight to simple ac vs ab when the game allows for much more?

Btw. Thank you Shamedmonkey for sharing your concept for Nightshift. I hope it works out for you. Currently wizards can do more, and limiting them to only buffers/spotters would make them less useful and fun to play.

[Alkapwn]

the question is how does a char with 70ab miss a mage with 75ac when he consistently rolles 10+ on his attack rolls

Imp Invisiblitly :O
The only ones complaining about the nerfs are the ones that refuse to make them.

[renarð]

Lets say 64 ab after the -4 from imp kd vs 75 ac for simplicity.

So the attack sequence is 65 65 60 55 50
The probability of hitting on those swings is 50%, 50%, 25%, 5%, 5%
After ii and blind fight they are 37.5%, 37.5%, 18.75%, 3.75%, 3.75%

Now if you play your mage anything like me, you run and cast and run and cast so that at most someone gets 2 swings against your toon, maybe more if they are a monk.

So 37.5%, 37.5%

So on a given chase you have somewhere between a 38% and 60% chance of landing a knockdown against a mage with 75 ac once you catch them. I personally don't know of any mage with 80ish discipline (probably some hybrid out there that does), so you pretty much have a 50% autokill vs a mage when you catch them.


Now some mages like to rock the epic dodge and only have around 70 ac. (5 sd 9 monk 26 wiz, or 10 sd 29/30 wiz builds).

That puts the 2 swings at around

50%, 50% leaving the KD attempt at between 0 and 25% success rate.


There's your answer.