Epic Mage Armor nerf........

[renarð]

I have cast 105 prismatic sprays against gabriel leonsbane and his flunkies, Aaron cranston was also kind enough to cast some at me. There is no autokill unless it require spell focus feats. Assuming such an autokill exists for those with spell focus feats, I don't think you can fault the player base for not discovering such an undocumented change to an otherwise pointless spell.

[Amoenotep]

if i kill ppl with it, it can't be pointless

[Daltian]

A how-to guide: Be immune to almost every spell in the game!

fort refl will
epic levels 10 10 10
spellcraft (crossclassed) 4 4 4
amulet (counting the stat bump) 0 8 0
boots 0 7 0
belt 8 0 0
rings 2 2 2
bracer (if you need the fort) 2 0 0
helm 0 0 4*
armor 1 1 1
pre-epic low save 6 6 6 0

totals 33 30 35

Almost every toon can use the above…



Now choose from the following to crank it to 40+ …

pre-epic high save 6 6 6
spellcraft (in class) 4 4 4
feats 0-7 0-7 0-7
bulls/cats/endurance 2 2 2
protection from spells 8 8 8
epic skill focus spellcraft 2 2 2
base stats mod -2-20 -2-20 -2-20
racial 0-2 0-2 0-2
sacred defense lol lol lol
bard song 0-6 0-6 0-6
divine grace 6+ 6+ 6+

now can you seriously tell me it is at all difficult to achieve over 40 in all saves versus spells, pick up some monk, bg, pally, cot, mage, or umd and 50 in all is easy.


Concerning prismatic spray, nothing in the change log indicates a change to the will save on the death effect listed on the wiki. So I tested it in game, there is indeed a will save versus death.

So acording to you achiving 50 in all saves ia easy. So high 50 should be hard but doable.
That means we should start whining about stun builds being underpowered, implode needs higher DC,.....

[OpalimTeGolim]

no, that means that you can build a toon immune to spells that require any save. In other words, you can have toon that will save almost everything but igms, ice storm and spells like that. Now add igms immunity to EMA and you have a melee toon almost completely immune to magic.

Stunning fist and similar feats do not take into account bonuses from saves vs. spells, so your saves vs them are lower.

And if your toons get imploded in pvp, you are not building them right

[OpalimTeGolim]

Oh, you forgot to say how many wizards you built in last 6 months...

[Daltian]

You can also build toon immune to stunning fist and yet no one is saying stunners are undrerpowered. At least a wizard has option to change spells and use somretyhing different against those who are immune.

6 months? I have problems with short term memory, might be wrong but I think 0. Must be something about TC not having that class.

[Rufio]

I am also under the impression that spells with saves are almost entirely useless. There are some exceptions, shadowdancer/rogue builds have a hard time with fort and will saves without feat dumps to boost them, but for the most part with the right gear and right feats getting saves vs spells in the mid 40's isn't too hard.

And actually if you look at it, the highest DC you could ever get on a spell is DC 48, and that requires 10 stat feats, a beginning casting stat of 20 at level 1, stat increases in the casting stat every 4 levels, a +4 book, a level 9 spell, and all the appropriate spell focus feats. You would have almost no room for extra epic feats, and would not be able to get auto-quicken 3 on any casting build with a DC that high.

My air elemental build had 53+ to every save including spellcraft with the right gear and not a single save feat, and the verdict is still out on my current kobold shifter, but once i get level 40 gear on it, I am expecting similar results, though I did have to spend 2 epic feats on saves. You could get bards cursing and dirging those builds all you want, but spells with a dc would be a waste of time.

The difficulty i see with spells is that the spells with the highest dcs are also the most powerful, as in if you fail the save, you die. If saves were nerfed, or if DCs were boosted, people would just start dropping like flies to wailers and imploders without ever getting a swing in. It is a difficult thing to balance, because DCs are always going to fall in a general range for focused casters, but saving throws are highly variable.

[Daltian]

You can have more then 48 with autoquicken3.

[Rufio]

You can have more then 48 with autoquicken3.

looking at wizards, since they have the more epic feats than druids or clerics (but the same as sorcerers, but it is simpler this way.)

Start with the max of 18 int, then use sun elf or any other +2 int race to start with 20 int.

all 10 normal stat increases go to int, so before feats and gear we have 30 int.

pure wizards get 13 epic feats. 7 general feats and 6 bonus wizard feats.

10 of those feats will go towards great int, which is the max you can get, which makes 40 int

Use a +4 book for 44 int.

+12 magic modifier is 56 int.


So, 56 int is the max anyone can possibly get, which is a +23 modifier.


There are 3 epic feats left. One needs to go to epic spell focus in something (lets say necromancy). spell focus and greater spell focus aren't an issue to take pre-epic.

now there are 2 epic feats left. well, that means no auto quick 3, auto quick 2 is the best you can do.

So, now the DC on Wail of the Banshee (level 9 spell) is 10 base + 9 spell level + 23 int modifier + 6 epic spell focus = DC 48.

The only exception to this max dc is Drown, which can max out at 52, assuming you are a water genesai and casting the spell in the rain, and if it isn't raining, drown can only get up to dc 47.

[Korr]

Rakshasa. . . immune to 8th level spells and below ';).

Spell DC vs saves is the same argument as AC vs AB. Its in the roll, just sucks for casters they dont get to force the numbers to be able to say " I will eventually get you!" but the bonus is that 1 time you DO get them theyre dead. . . they dont just take 30 damage.

[MM_wpo]

You can have more then 48 with autoquicken3.

How does autoquicken3 (or any metamagic feat) affect the DC of a spell?

[Shamedmonkey]

You can have more then 48 with autoquicken3.

A DC of 48 is the absolute max for any spell on the server unless they're given an artificial boost (such as Implosion gets a random +3 to DC when it's unmodified).

Furthermore, saves are a slot harder to get up than you all think. And if you think a mage's only weapon is IGMS, you all need to shut the hell up and learn how to play a mage. And yes, I have made a mage recently. Take a few lessons from Archael, he plays his sorc better than anyone on the server (not to mention with what I would call a gimped build, but that's just my opinion). He does just fine, in fact he's an incredibly pain in the [censored] to take down. You all need to realize that if you aren't getting it done attacking wise, switch to support mode and start debuffing everything in site. Throw a mords down and everyone in the AoE's UEF is instantly gone, throw a NEB down and everyone is encumbered. Once that's done, throw a 7th level bigby down on their runners and they're instantly slowed- there is no defense against the 7th level bigby other than FoM, and FoM is stripped with a single greater spell breach or a mords. You want to try PvPing when you're slowed to a crawl? It's freaking impossible, especially because 80% of PvP isn't fighting, it's running away from fights you know you're going to lose and letting your party help you out.

A mage's job is not to be attacker most of the time, it's to be debuffer and party support.

[mining monk]

A mage's job is not to be attacker most of the time, it's to be debuffer and party support.

Now, all we need is PnP Enervation.

[VagaStorm]

A mage's job is not to be attacker most of the time, it's to be debuffer and party support.

Thanx, but you can keep your cokie cutter mage. D&D in more intresting than a mmo cas I decide my self what kind of build I like.

[Shamedmonkey]

A mage's job is not to be attacker most of the time, it's to be debuffer and party support.

Thanx, but you can keep your cokie cutter mage. D&D in more intresting than a mmo cas I decide my self what kind of build I like.

Is that not what other classes are for? It's not the least bit overpowered that tenser build mage/wm can run around and do better than a fighter/wm build? It's stupid. I realize mages are all powerful in PnP, but I think the devs are striving for balance on NS4. Wizards are already the most versatile casters on the server. Sorcs are very versatile simply because you don't have to setup for each PvP encounter.