Epic Mage Armor nerf........

[Amoenotep]

if your a wiz/sorc and the only offensive spells you know about or use is IGMS or ice storm...delete your mage and play something that doesn't require any thought or planning...like a monk or something.

i can kill your igms casting, ice storm having mage in a few rounds with a real mage that laughs at anyone that relies on 2 spells for damage.

[renarð]

I'll bite again.


My dex ftr's dmg blows i'll buy that, so lets take all that dex and make it str, i now lose around 10 ac as I go to fullplate and now i need a few reflex feats. My will is the same, my fort is the same.

Daltian, what mystical will save spell are you going to toss at him that work's better now that he isn't a dex build? The only thing that works better now is bigby 9, which I admitted to being one of the effective mage crowd control spells.



Amoenotep, lets say I have a character with 50 or more in every save against spells and I have evasion. What are you going to kill him with? You've got igms (which is countered by a lvl 1 spell and a robe that reflects it), you've got melf's which will take you 5 minutes, you've got icestorm which work's great in theory but has some major issues in practice. Please, I want to know, cause I have looked at every spell that doesn't have a save that negates the effect and those are the ones that pop out. Thunderclap is great if they have a weak save, worthless if they don't; Power word series is great if you reduce their HP first, the entire magic missile line is only going to get weaker as more robes get into circulation. Bigby is awesome but it doesn't kill anything.



::awaits noobish insults::

[OpalimTeGolim]

Thx for the two long posts. Stunning fist is a known out of line ability that will eventually be kicked in the head.

There are other spells besides IGMS (which bards, clerics and druids can counter from level 15ish on--and clers have more spell slots than you). Of course it would be insane to make a few scrolls when you stop by Avendell or pare down your buffs to what you really need.

Problem with countering remains no matter which spells you use, right? But besides that, did I get right your vision of a pvp wizard as someone who would slot different spells for each battle? So, before I go to battle, I check who is on line and figure out who my potential target is (even tho the guy might have two or more toons and can switch them any time before the actual fight), rest to memorize right spells (without actually knowing what gear toon is having to know if he will resist fire or bludgeoning dmg or just has reflecting robe), and then go and attack?
I hope you see the futility of that approach. I am not a sorceror, I am a wizard. I can't switch spells easily. He can switch toons easily. With full IGMS I get like 2 lvl 40 toons if everything goes right. Usually it does not since there are npcs around us and i waste some IGMS on them. With rainbow spell collection it will suck big time. And I'll have to do some nasty use of quickbar there coz 12 slots might not be enough. Also, their saves will kill me. Every time I miss is the opportunity for them to hit me or come closer.
Now compare that situation to melee toon. If I notice that the enemy has armor that resist pierce dmg, with one click I change my weapon from pierce to slash. I loose at worst +3 ab from weapon specialization feats. Also, change is done in a second.

My point is that "use other spells" is not a good argument because you can not change them during the battle. And guessing what spells to use is just worth it. Seriously, I can see ppl switching toons before the fight to mess up with mages (although it most likely wont be needed coz ac 63 is so low that a cleric hybrid halfer wearing only purple boots can hit it with a sling). I can see toons replacing equipment during the raids or after I kill them and they respawn in barracks. It makes toon useless in raiding. I can't play with resloting when I'm raiding.

Instead of even thinking about wiz, I'll just roll some cute bard hybrid to get ab in low to mid 50ies, ac in low to mid 70ies, 600 (or more) hp, hips, cute curse song and dirge (I can show you the outline of the build if you insist). Will that be to powerful?

Point about hipsers. Yes, you can get nice spot and in 1vs1 it helps. 90 is not enough to see good hipsers, if you think it is, go find Bingo with that spot. You can get it higher tho with spell focus. If you do that, you will have to drop some other feats. It gets harder. So in effect, you have less feats for other things if you want to be spotter, you have lower ac, and your spells are not good. That breaks the build. You can get spotter helmet if you are ready to loose lots of spell slots, in which case you might end up hitting enemy with a stick... if you don't get disarmed before that.

As a member of the party, wiz with ac 63 is doomed. After they kill you, you loose EMA so your ac is in low 50ies. I believe even Daltian can hit that. So you need to stay alive. From my experience, smart players always rush on wizards first, and if they can catch you (see my previous post how that can be done), you are dead. With higher ac you have some chance of surviving. From my experience so far, if you get down, you stay down. Even with current ac. With ac in low 60 everyone can hit you (maybe not Daltian).

I don't know how to answer Daltian's claims be cause he just doesn't know what he is talking about. Ofc you'll build dex based fighter! Ofc you will build a fighter that is not typical! The difference in typical and untypical is that untypical can do something that typical can not, like kill that wizard. I build my untypical wizard in the first place so typical fighter would have hard time killing it! Again, your strategy is to kd and keep pounding wizard while he is on the ground. Once he is on the ground his ac is not high enough, so you just keep him on the ground. Also, read wiki and you'll see that fighter token stacks with haste (is that really so?). In the worst case you can chug haste potion for some extra speed boost. Again, only one hit is enough with properly built fighter if your ac is in low 60ies. I'm sorry, but you just don't know how to fight wizards... Not my fault. You can kill wizard if you are doing it right. Wizard can kill you too, I won't say he can't. As long as you can't hit wiz, he is safe.

Anyway, that was pure fighter vs wiz. And pure fighter is really not a good toon to fight wiz. There are better combos. IMO, anything that does not need to chase you will be able to kill you (not just aa, but also cleric hybrids, bard hybrids and druid hybrids. Anything that can heal and handle bow, if build properly, can kill you). I am sorry you can't build good shifter/druid builds, but don't blame EMA for that. Sadly, I understand TC/NC don't have wizards and any EMA nerf is your gain and see your motivation there. I apologize if I am wrong. I suggest you open new thread called "the druid problem" and write there. I'd be glad to say something as long as you write something smart. If TC/NC is weak, let's make it stronger by not destroying wizards. Btw. how many wizards did you build lately? In last 6 months let's say.

Again, I won't fight your typical fighter coz that is not sexy at all. I already know who will win that fight. And it's not you. What I don't want is that my untypical wizard into which I invested a lot of thought and time to build gets nerfed to death so that randomly assembled toon can vaporize it on sight. So far, this nerf damages ac and weapons at the same time. I don't know what breaks it more. And the funny thing is that I'm not sure that my wizard is the prime target of this nerf, maybe it's just the collateral consequence of PM apparently high AC bonus (Btw PMs actually gain IGMS immunity with this nerf, as if they did not have enough immunities already).

Point remains. Put ac to 63 and you will remove serious wizard casters from the game. Maybe wiz will be good for cheesing after the nerf.. dunno.

if your a wiz/sorc and the only offensive spells you know about or use is IGMS or ice storm...delete your mage and play something that doesn't require any thought or planning...like a monk or something.

i can kill your igms casting, ice storm having mage in a few rounds with a real mage that laughs at anyone that relies on 2 spells for damage.

I would die by your hand any time Lord Mask!

[Lokey]

A pure bard can get to 70ab by himself, mixed bard maybe a little higher. Typo?

Being knocked down = flatfoot and melee is +4 to hit you, ranged is -4.

Every fight needn't be to the death: throw some trial spells (thunderclap gives you a guess at their saves), get out of dodge if a spellbook class and come back loaded with the things that will work better. Sorc doesn't have that problem, but hopefully feels that 3 or 4 spells per level are not enough for everything

If you have a wiz, you picked 2 spells per level. You can trade for scrolls to learn (and you probably shouldn't specialize, you're going to lose something useful). Without focus you can mess around somewhere to see what gets hit by what and what happens. If you get your buff list down to five or six spells (have 2 sets) and limit the number of utility things you have to have memorized, you have about 30 slots across spell levels left. That leaves plenty of variety.

Tep wrote his doctorate in Bigby abuse, those questions go to him.

Wizards need to use their intelligence: if you fight on the enemy's terms, expect to lose.

[VagaStorm]

A pure bard can get to 70ab by himself, mixed bard maybe a little higher. Typo?

Being knocked down = flatfoot and melee is +4 to hit you, ranged is -4.

Every fight needn't be to the death: throw some trial spells (thunderclap gives you a guess at their saves), get out of dodge if a spellbook class and come back loaded with the things that will work better. Sorc doesn't have that problem, but hopefully feels that 3 or 4 spells per level are not enough for everything

If you have a wiz, you picked 2 spells per level. You can trade for scrolls to learn (and you probably shouldn't specialize, you're going to lose something useful). Without focus you can mess around somewhere to see what gets hit by what and what happens. If you get your buff list down to five or six spells (have 2 sets) and limit the number of utility things you have to have memorized, you have about 30 slots across spell levels left. That leaves plenty of variety.

Tep wrote his doctorate in Bigby abuse, those questions go to him.

Wizards need to use their intelligence: if you fight on the enemy's terms, expect to lose.

If I understand the new bard thing correctly, thers a reason you dont see alot of multiclass bards around. The most importantly is that you'll loos 3 ab by adding just 1 other class lvl. This can be overcome by making a str based bard/rdd, bard/aa or add 12 1/1 ab lvls pre epic, but still, you will loose 15 damage, which agen you will need the rdd build to counter. Since warcry no longer can be cast in armor, str based bards are prety much distinct....

[Amoenotep]

I'll bite again.
Amoenotep, lets say I have a character with 50 or more in every save against spells and I have evasion. What are you going to kill him with? You've got igms (which is countered by a lvl 1 spell and a robe that reflects it), you've got melf's which will take you 5 minutes, you've got icestorm which work's great in theory but has some major issues in practice. Please, I want to know, cause I have looked at every spell that doesn't have a save that negates the effect and those are the ones that pop out. Thunderclap is great if they have a weak save, worthless if they don't; Power word series is great if you reduce their HP first, the entire magic missile line is only going to get weaker as more robes get into circulation. Bigby is awesome but it doesn't kill anything.

::awaits noobish insults::

there are multiple bigby's. some debilitate, some do straight damage. ever seen a bigby hand crit for 300+ damage?

thunderclap hits all 3 saves...thats right, you have to make 3 saves.

horrid wilting is a nice aoe that puts out a moderate amount of damage.

epic spells...hellball and greater ruin can make your day hurt.

neg energy burst....if you don't know how to use this don't make a mage.

prismatic spray...yeah..save vs death or just death...plus other random things.

damage shields...if your getting hit, why not give damage back.

so renard...you figure out how many of those spells aren't igms/ice storm and how many are 'truly' effective that no one uses or too scared to use. sure some of them have saves...most of them don't.

[OpalimTeGolim]

A pure bard can get to 70ab by himself, mixed bard maybe a little higher. Typo?

Being knocked down = flatfoot and melee is +4 to hit you, ranged is -4.

Assuming attacker hits you, they need to actually kd you. Let's see what you need to roll to overcome bard's discipline:

lvls 43
epic skill 10
bard song 8
equipment (2 slave rings) 12
bonus from extra stats on equipment and buffs 6
kd penalty 4
total 83

I hope I got this correctly.
You can get more bonus from equipment and I think you also get some bonus from your stats (don't know if discipline is dex or str so I did not add it). You can also get more by taking pre epic skill focus if you are worried about kd. Point is that you should have your disc in mid 80ies or low 90ies as pure bard. Sure, if they kd you, you are as dead as wizard, but fewer hits will kd you compared to wizards. Oh, I forgot that most likely you will be cursed which is -4 ac, and (in theory) you can get -2 (or more) ac if bard casts dirge.
I'm not saying bards and wizards are the same, they are not. But this was just to show that if you see a flatfoot as a problem for toon with ac in high 60ies (or 70ies) with disc of at least 83, think what kd can do to someone with ac 63 and lower disc.

Every fight needn't be to the death: throw some trial spells (thunderclap gives you a guess at their saves), get out of dodge if a spellbook class and come back loaded with the things that will work better. Sorc doesn't have that problem, but hopefully feels that 3 or 4 spells per level are not enough for everything

Try casting thunderclap during the relic raid and see what your party will tell you All that sounds nice in theory. I'm talking about my experience from playing a wiz so far. Even ice storms, which cause less problems, make your party members dislike you. Also, even if you don't check a combat log but just guess based on the effects of one thunderclap what might work, there is no way of knowing why they failed the save. Was it because you rolled 20, or is rolling 4 enough? I can see a scenario where I use thunderclap, they fail will save, I decide to use prismatic spray (short range) and they save. Then they kd me and I'm dead with my ac now in 50ies. Point is that you can not afford testing and hoping things will work when your ac is low and when they are chasing you around.

If you have a wiz, you picked 2 spells per level. You can trade for scrolls to learn (and you probably shouldn't specialize, you're going to lose something useful). Without focus you can mess around somewhere to see what gets hit by what and what happens. If you get your buff list down to five or six spells (have 2 sets) and limit the number of utility things you have to have memorized, you have about 30 slots across spell levels left. That leaves plenty of variety.

OK, so the opinion is that igms, ilms, ice storms, mord, spell breach, dispell, grease, neg energy burst, bigby 7, bigby 9, melf's arrow, shield, horrid wilting, cats, owls, endurance, cc, ts, haste (those are the spells I usually use) is not big enough variety of spells that are used in pvp and that more is needed. The idea is to force wizards to use spells that roll against the saves and the idea is that they should use their inteligence to figure out what works. Ok, I see a noble effort there ("let's make as many of 170+ spells useful as possible").

Wizards need to use their intelligence: if you fight on the enemy's terms, expect to lose.

I agree with that. I think that every player should use their intelligence and if you fight on enemy's terms you will loose. And I think that currently you can counter wizards if you use your brain (rush + kd. Add some spotting for those wiz hipsers and you are in big advantage). After nerf I think that wizards just won't have a chance, even with all those spells Amoenotep mentioned (in which most of those that do dmg are party unfriendly or can be used once and require feats).

It's just not worth it IMO. Running around, guessing what to cast, watching how your hp goes down coz that hobo cleric with a sling is hitting you is not fun at all. Better just roll melee toon with decent saves then and just fight. No need to run, guess what weapon to use* and so. I still think this nerf will remove pvp wiz casters. That will hurt the game I think. Melee only server is boring.

* you can just change weapon with one click if they don't work. And unlike wiz, you can do it as many times as you want.

[Amoenotep]

lokey always parties with my wiz....and i do more damage to him than the enemies usually do. the point isn't that you hurt your friends...the point is you hurt the enemy more and win, winning cancels everything

[Lokey]

I might give tips on how to kill stuff with wizard spells. Not going to with druid spells lol.

[renarð]

In response to tep:

1)I have only been hit by bigby damage once, Primarch got me while resting. My AC is simply too high (70). When it comes to top tier characters, the AC is often too high. Assuming their AC isn’t sufficiently high, they carry dismissal rods.

2)Saves are too easy. I’ve never been hit by a thunderclap.

3)Rock that 56 damage per cast with horrid. It will only take you 5 rounds to kill a caster (and require using them in your level 9 slots as well if you are a wiz). You have to hit 3 people per cast to compete with harm or a maxed IGMS, and personally in my experience the best pvp strat is to focus fire people and make them dead, not split the damage across the whole team.

4) Epic spells rock, I admit it. Too bad they take a full round to cast and are 1 use. But because of that, you can actually do the same damage with IGMS, and more with maxxed or empowered igms. Harm spamming is also superior damage. The knockdown on hellball is pimp, it just massively reduces your build options and that means ac or disc or tumble will suffer.

5)NEB is great after they grab the relic and you hope to encumber, before then it reduces a STR build’s AB by around 4 and their damage by 4-6, a DEX build won’t even notice it.

6)Again saves are simply too high. Additionally if people are taking 8 to 10 greater WIS/INT/CHA feats trying to boost their DC to something worth a damn, why would they use a spell that isn’t even level 9?

7)Damage shields are pimp…. in the original campaign. Simply put, me doing 20 damage at them when they are landing knockdowns just isn’t worth noting. They have a good 300 hp on me and are hitting for a hell of a lot more than 20 damage. Now if damage shields did damage on every swing, not every hit, I would actually be using them. If a caster gets knocked down or stunned, they are dead, my AC tanks and the crits and sneaks start popping, most of the time my toon doesn’t even get to stand up. My wiz has 600hp which I think is very respectable on a d4 class as well as epic dodge.


When I say saves are too high, I mean that for every build I ever do in excell that I consider using, my fort and will are 40+ vs spells, usually my reflex as well (with no outside buffs). My ac is also always above 60 (I aim for at least 65) in my str builds, at least 65 (aiming for 70) in my dex builds: If you want to see these builds, just ask. They include clerics, bards, PMs, rangers, monks, harper scouts (with sorceror), mages (without monk levels even), WM’s, Assassins, CoTs, Pally’s, RDDs, and blackguards. I don’t know anything about 30rdd or shifters, just that they tear up my melee team members so I aim for them first.

Tossing 45 dc spells at PWnD won’t work, having 60 ac against PWnD won’t work. Just like it didn’t work when SL was the big scary faction. I know the nerfs are coming, that’s why I stopped leveling my caster reroll to work on something easy, sadly no monks in MA, so I’ll just roll a pure bard and watch my ac cross 70, as well as my attack.

[Amoenotep]

pris spray has a death effect with no save...you just die.

i don't think all your saves are in the 50's...all 3 of them would be a tough build with no feats left over for anything usefull.

horrid is a lvl 8 spell, you can cast it till the cows come home.

i'm telling you that if your rely on igms as your work horse your mage already fails.

[Shamedmonkey]

Bards are over powered for a reason...everyone gets them.

[renarð]

A how-to guide: Be immune to almost every spell in the game!

fort refl will
epic levels 10 10 10
spellcraft (crossclassed) 4 4 4
amulet (counting the stat bump) 0 8 0
boots 0 7 0
belt 8 0 0
rings 2 2 2
bracer (if you need the fort) 2 0 0
helm 0 0 4*
armor 1 1 1
pre-epic low save 6 6 6 0

totals 33 30 35

Almost every toon can use the above…



Now choose from the following to crank it to 40+ …

pre-epic high save 6 6 6
spellcraft (in class) 4 4 4
feats 0-7 0-7 0-7
bulls/cats/endurance 2 2 2
protection from spells 8 8 8
epic skill focus spellcraft 2 2 2
base stats mod -2-20 -2-20 -2-20
racial 0-2 0-2 0-2
sacred defense lol lol lol
bard song 0-6 0-6 0-6
divine grace 6+ 6+ 6+

now can you seriously tell me it is at all difficult to achieve over 40 in all saves versus spells, pick up some monk, bg, pally, cot, mage, or umd and 50 in all is easy.


Concerning prismatic spray, nothing in the change log indicates a change to the will save on the death effect listed on the wiki. So I tested it in game, there is indeed a will save versus death.

[Bishop99]

pris spray has a death effect with no save...you just die.

i don't think all your saves are in the 50's...all 3 of them would be a tough build with no feats left over for anything usefull.

horrid is a lvl 8 spell, you can cast it till the cows come home.

i'm telling you that if your rely on igms as your work horse your mage already fails.

no save on that pris spray death?

Did you need epic evocation for that or does it come standard?

[Amoenotep]

there is more than one death effect on pris spray.

who cares about save throws? thats what bigby hands are for