2handed help and support

[disastro]

I've tried to make a couple of scythe builds and while the damage seems pretty good, my builds have all had a hard time staying alive after a certain level. anybody have tips or experience on surviving shieldless?

the general problem ive noticed is that going shieldless means i have to avoid ALL aggro, otherwise i face plant pretty fast. in turn that means that the damage i contribute to a party is actually less than what a shielded weapon master counterpart brings in, mainly because i spend lots of time either dead or doing the "circle dance" running enemies around the party, trying to stay alive.

my second build attempt was much more survivable than the first half-ogre toon, but basically relies entirely on the earth genasi token power. while it's up i do OK but that power gets chewed up remarkably fast against dwarves. at that point i have to switch back to shield mode and become a fighter who wasted 6 feats.

now over the course of 57 shieldless levels i've become a much, much smarter player, but it's demoralizing to spend half of every encounter running in circles while the shield / rapier wm is still happily dropping tons of critical damage.

should i just give up on the concept?

[LinuxPup]

Using a two-handed weapon is really difficult to do well. I generally stay away from them because I find the extra damage not worth the vulnerabilities. A strength based fighter with a rapier will generally do more damage than with a scythe, because even though its only critting at x2 instead of x4 (or x3 and x5 respectfully as a WM), the rapier is critting far more often (assuming the creature isn't crit immune).

That said, if you're going two-handed, you should generally have at the very least, 750 hp by around lvl 35-40. Consider taking elemental damage reduction feats as well as epic damage reduction 3. Also, barbarian or dwarven defender are good considerations because of the extra hp and damage reduction.

A lot of two-handed weapon players are cleric/monks, because they get the AC bonus from wisdom, and can buff their ab up quite a bit. Also if you invest in some charisma, divine shield (via cleric, blackguard, or paladin) might up your AC too.

However, I think going the AC route with a strength-based character with no shield is a waste. It's hard enough to get your AC high with a strength-based character *with* a shield. It seems the better route is let them hit you, but absorb damage well...

Another consideration is to go pale master. Being crit/sneak immune makes ALL the difference in melee combat. Plus you get a bit of an AC boost. We could always use more folks at MA.

[JesterOI]

Yes.

Bonus dmg on 2handed weapons used to be equal to that of 1handed.
Even with the dmg boost, it's still preferable to use a shield.
Getting almost 10ac, damage immunity, and resistance from a shield is WAY more powerful than the barely 50% dmg boost on 2handed weapons.

Perhaps it's time to try double bonus dmg on 2handed weapons now that it's known that a shield is still absolutely more powerful.
Increased enhancement for 2handed weapons could be useful too, 50% (rounded down) increase over 1handed. Imbued adamantine 2handed weapons would be +9 instead of +6 for example.
A higher prevalence of vamp regen on 2handed weapons would help as well.

[disastro]

heh, actually most of my toons are already in ma, and for some reason i have yet to roll a pm

i thought about investing in the dr feats and resistances, however the dr feats need 21 con and that would have sapped my strength a great deal, especially considering that you need 13 int and 13 dex to roll a weapon master. at that point i felt i would be creating a somewhat more survivable character that had very low damage and AB.

I have altered my play tactics to be more of a ninja/bosskiller. basically dont do much to attract attention until i can maneuver into a good spot to take down a stray target that's fighting somebody else. it works if i am careful but to be honest that style of play is more suited to a shadowdancer and is not what I was looking for in a damage dealer. I have a lot of bard levels on this build and for the most part i end up staying back and using those skills more than the scythe.

I'm not sure how to make the situation better.

[JesterOI]

Don't make 2handers

[LinuxPup]

A bit off topic....

One thing I've never seen but think would be cool is a uber strong halfling/gnome rapier WM.

For them a rapier is like a large weapon, so they wield it like a greatsword... except it still has the 18-20 crit range.... so they'd have a 10-20 crit range with 1.5 str mod and a x3 crit multiplier. Small stature folks also get a free +1 AB/AC.

Again, I'm not big on two-handed weapons, but it would be pretty unique. Ghostwise halflings would be a good pick, since they get the +2 dex which helps for WM, and no -2 strength penalty like normal halflings.

[disastro]

A bit off topic....

One thing I've never seen but think would be cool is a uber strong halfling/gnome rapier WM.

interesting concept, but you'd die fast. earth genasi seems mandatory. my first non-genasi 2hander spent almost all of frostdale levels on the ground waiting for a rez. my team spent 16 raise scrolls on me during one night's play session.

my earth genasi reroll of the concept managed to make it pretty well through frostdale, but now he has the same problem vs dwarves. a few rounds of genasi power then instant giblets (i have to guess at how much juice is left in the genasi tank and then disengage early or switch back to shield... depending on what's going on I die within one or two rounds after the power goes down.)

[LinuxPup]

Yeah for the most part agreed... even earth genasi are really limited.

Pale masters can last a lot longer than earth genasi wm... especially if you take epic mage armor and epic warding. Your ab would be around 55-58 depending on your race.

Edit: Being both earth genasi and PM is always a bonus, but if you can stand the ECL 3 like few people can, Githyanki might be a good choice for the SR, strength, and con.

[disastro]

Y
Pale masters can last a lot longer than earth genasi wm... especially if you take epic mage armor and epic warding. Your ab would be around 55-58 depending on your race.

the problem with pm is that it precludes wm. and if you're not getting the multiplier or threat range increase you are better off with a better threat range weapon like rapier/scim. dual wield for more options, more crit chances, and more damage overall.

basically the "do extra damage" philosophy that led to the 50% damage boost for 2handed weapons worked well for me until around level 20. on giant mountain i really was able to make a good defense out of a good offense: vs a 3 pack of giants i could gain a damage reduction of 33% by killing one real fast. however in the epic levels enemies dealt so much more damage and had so many more hit points that i could not drop an opponent fast enough to make a difference to my hit points.

[minielvis]

low fighter/ low rogue/ high dwarven defender

Damage will not be near wm , but your survivablity will go up
tremendously.

[ihuntudown]

raise your damage as high as possible, a dead enemy can't hurt you

[VagaStorm]

I have sevral 2-handed wm's, the highest is 32 (I think) but he is only 7 wm lvls, and dreadfouly easy to kill if you can soak some damage.

I have never tried doing a scyte, so I'm not gona coment on it as a wm wepon, but I generaly prefear weapons that has better crit range.

To increase survivability:
1. Add rouge levels. Ther is no point in doing more than 28 wm lvls, so 7 firgh, 5 rouge, 28 wm will enable you to max out tumble( +8 ac) and umd (staffs, rods, and all else you can tink of). Oh, and I almost forgot the wery usable evasion. (Actualy I think an erthgen with maxed out tunble should be geting better ac than a non erhgen shielder, but that depends on how faar you can get natuarl ac items(I've never seen better than +5).

2. Imp expertice. You may think loosing 10 on your ab will make you useless, I'm telling ya your more useless dead.

3. Epic dmg resistance and energy resitance. If your an erthgen, the few less points of ab will pay itself of(remember a book can be used on both str and con if you can get your hands on one) as it epic dmg resitance will keep your erthgen ability up longer I belive. If you add some kind of caster to your build, a stone skin should help ya to.

[TheBestDeception]

To increase survivability:
1. Add rouge levels. Ther is no point in doing more than 28 wm lvls, so 7 firgh, 5 rouge, 28 wm will enable you to max out tumble( +8 ac) and umd (staffs, rods, and all else you can tink of). Oh, and I almost forgot the wery usable evasion. (Actualy I think an erthgen with maxed out tunble should be geting better ac than a non erhgen shielder, but that depends on how faar you can get natuarl ac items(I've never seen better than +5).

The main problem with this suggestion is that it fails to take into account that a Shielder can do that exact same - and most good builds do - in which case the 2Hander will still have 8-9 less AC than the well-built shielder.

Jester wins on the problem. Shield AC's have increased alot, while the difference between 2Handed weaps and 1Handed weaps are only marginally different.

[Binkyuk]

why would taking red coloured levels help with defence?

[JesterOI]

raise your damage as high as possible, a dead enemy can't hurt you

Sound advice for pre-planes adventuring, useless once you get to the planes.

why would taking red coloured levels help with defence?

I was wondering the same thing...