Cheese Builds?

watchwood · Post by **watchwood** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:01 pm

I understand the concept of cheese builds, and I know why some people don't like them. What I would like to know though is what they actually are. I understand that Monk/Cleric is a commonly hated one, as are most that invole monks for some reason (my favorite class, ironically). I'm just kinda curious as to what the others are.

Post by **Mr. O'Dearly** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:18 pm

Cheese is a widely used and vaguely defined term...

It can be used to describe a build which "abuses" certain class features, such as the monks ac bonus. Clerics are not meant to have their wisdom score added to their ac but it is of course possible and a rather popular build.

Similarly, a build is often called a cheese build if it uses a single level of a class, (or rather, a very small number of levels) for the purpose of gaining that classes benefits. This is often seen with sorcerers taking one level of paladin or just about any class taking one level of shadowdancer.

Furthermore, "cheese" is even more often used to describe any build that works well.

Edit: one of my favorite examples of this use was when DD1's 30lvls of pm was called "UBERCHEESE"

Dont worry about it too much. The devs have done a lot to prevent some of the more obscene cheese builds by incorporating the 5 lvl minimum rule, separating and restricting classes in factions, and of course one of the greatest, no epic shifting feats for non-pure druid/shifters.

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:11 pm

Cheese builds I am aware of include...

Cleric/Monk - Usually only 1 level of monk, but may have 3. Only need first level for AC bonus from Wisdom.

Druid/Monk (Shifter optional) - Again, usually small amount of monks for AC from Wisdom (a main ability score for a druid as it is for a cleric)

Sorcerer/Paladin - Only 1 level paladin, this adds the Paladin's charisma ability (a main ability score for a paladin and sorceror) to add to the sorceror's saves.

Shadowdancer Cheese - This involves many, many types of classes. Many classes take only 1 level shadowdancer for the Hide In Plain Sight ability that is achievable at level 1. The about only class this isn't too cheesy for is Rogue. It can be non-cheesy for other characters like a dark cleric that summons shadows I suppose. A real problem for this one is that rogue's actually possess more abilities than the shadowdancer and HIPS is the only one that they need, so taking more than one level is usually pointless.

Paladin/Blackguard - Originally, this would not hav been cheesy at all. A blackguard is actually a fallen paladin, so this class should have been normal. However, due to Bioware's idiocy (again), the bonuses from both stack. A fallen Blackguard is supposed to lose his abilities and bonuses they had as a paladin due to falling from grace, but Bioware forgets things.

There are probably much more, but as Mr. O'Dearly pointed out they have all been resolved by the Devs (bravo on that). 5 Minimum levels on each paladin, monk, and all presitge classes. Also the Druid/Monk build can not take epic shapes, rendering it cheeseless (hehe). Also, since alignment can not be changed on Neversummer 4, the Paladin/Blackguard is impossible.

minielvis · Post by **minielvis** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:45 pm

cheese: something that, by itself, is not very desireable, but when added to something else (desireable or not), it suddenly becomes absolutely, positively delicious!

you guys forgot: Rogue cheese: very handy ,eh?
Bard cheese: for those pesky chaotic builds
Fighter cheese: feats anyone?
pre-prestige cheese: needed to qualify for a prc

All in all, cheese is any added class or classes that combine with your build to give better skills , free feats and saves, that the build would not have had without the cheese.

kingfatzo · Post by **kingfatzo** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:56 pm

just a reminder to anyone who is fairly new and may not have read all the documentation yet, some of these tempting cheesy builds are impossible in the module, but for those who may be unsure: druid is can only be mixed with a shifter : theres a double-restriction on monk (as well as pally i belive) which requires 5 lvls minimum regardless if they are taken under lvl 20....and of course the minimum 5 lvl rule itself.

http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.php/Druid

http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns4/viewt ... c&start=15

i dont want to see anyone who is unfarmilar w/ ns4 to get pwnd by their first build

Post by **Mr. O'Dearly** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:39 pm

all these posts (including mine

) and no one thought to put cheddar!?

...though minielvis eluded to it

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:29 am

wait till i build up my uber monky/shifter cheese....he's gonna rock.

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:55 am

gonna use the kobold commando form (is that non-epic?)

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:29 pm

kobold, drow, lizard, mino, gargoyle....if only the shifting script was better then shifters would really be worth playing more often.

Post by **LinuxPup** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:34 am

Minielvis' definition doesn't work... according to it, all multiclassing is cheese.

I think the thing about a sorc/pally that makes it "cheese" is that the toon isn't used as a paladin at all... a 39 sorc/1 paladin won't be using smite evil, or turn undead, casting paladin spells, or doing any melee for that matter. Its just exploiting the divine grace feat alone.

So a rogue with 1 SD lvl differs in that unlike the sorc/pally, the main focus of the SD is being used by a rogue unlike the paladin level with the sorc. I think the big mistake was on Bioware for putting hips as lvl 1 for SD instead of 10 or something like that.

Post by **Mr. O'Dearly** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:17 pm

Cheese is a widely used and vaguely defined term...

there are no wrong definitions!

If minielvis uses the word using that definition, then for him, it has that defintion.

Isn't language wonderful...

Longfeng · Post by **Longfeng** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:16 pm

True, but there have to be difinitions that are commonly accepted by many, otherwise language would be meaningless.

kingfatzo · Post by **kingfatzo** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:48 am

aye....when i hear cheese, i think of food...i dont know what all of you are rambling about

Longfeng · Post by **Longfeng** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:40 pm

Heh, I spelled definition wrong!