RDD the dispell bait...

[Ogami]

If i want to build a 20 cleric 5 bard 15 rdd , why should i have 8 less dispell dc than a 19 cleric 5 bard 16 palemaster which also gets ema and warding feats on top of all the nice immunities ?
I might have posted this before but lately a popular SL/MA player was asking this too.
it's a long awaited improvement & easy to implement.

[Bargeld]

Does a 5 bard 16 PM get EMA and Warding? Both have prerequisites of casting lvl 9 arcane spells, which I don't think that build satisfies. The clc level 9 spells don't open that up.

I would think that only a base 5 wizard with 16 pm and int 19+ could achieve this. And since wiz is not a prereq class for RDD, it would not be at all possible.

The dispel DC should also only be different when comparing the bard/arcane spells that are cast. Cleric spells cast by the RDD version should have dispel DC of 32, PM version 31. The bard/arcane spells cast will have dispel DC of 17 on the RDD, 25 on the PM.

All of that aside... my opinion (not just being a jerk because it is an enemy's build, but this makes logical and RP sense to me) is that the classes are completely different and each receive their own bonuses. PM gets extra spells at a reduced rate, some weird wimpy DC touch attacks, stun and sneak immune, and summons. RDD gets a bunch of stat bonuses, breath weapon that scales, dragon shapes, immune to fire, paralyze, & sleep, and disc & spot. Both classes share AC and HP increases, but on a differing scale.

10 sorc 30 rdd currently has 22 dispel DC. Under the suggested change, it would have 37 dispel DC. Other combos would be affected like this as well... basically giving the pure 30 RDD dragons a +15 increase in any self cast buffs (Imp Invis and stat buffs being the main ones, I assume).

[Ogami]

short reply :

19 cleric 5 bard 16 palemaster is dc 38 to dispell. 8 of this comes from 1/2 palemaster level.

Didn't knew it can access to ema and warding? @@¬

lately sags and brend have been building those and before that alka had a couple. Old build.

10 sorc is actually 21 dispell dc, the rule is level +11. And no one will build 10 sorc 30 rdd anyway...

oh no reply was longer than i thought ... ok back to raiding you.

[Bargeld]

Yeah, just tested and apparently the PM lvls do count toward clc buffs. That's dumb.

And yeah +11.

I'd rather have the PM lvl dispel bonus removed from clc then add them to RDD + clc.

[Lokey]

The only thing req for epic spell feats is level 21 of full casting class or 15 of pm and spellcraft ranks. Not sure if there's something in the gui that prevents use, don't think so.

The engine dispel function while better than it was still has a ton of issues. We know dispelling isn't great (even around level 20 where it was designed), but there's still one or two things missing to make a good system with it. There's an nwnx module that might work for it, but would involve digging through the spells more so than other projects, would want something comprehensive to do while doing that (would require some minor redesign in a lot of cases, not something that I can just find/replace). Bril, mining, etc have looked at the garbage I wrote for it, all pointed to the same things as sucking, but no one has a better way to do dispelling, or found a better bandage to slap on it.

PM has its problems, but it is a spellcasting class (not a good one in PnP--caster levels are the most important thing there is there). Dragon Disciple mostly isn't and there's much easier and better ways to get what the class gives in PnP too. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClass ... sciple.htm

[Ogami]

the problem is not lowering the pm dc
you could extend it to every prestige class and make lotta people happy

The real problem is the rdd is too easily dispelled by anything like a sd, stripping all the spot buffs.


But if you want it only for caster classes (assassin is clearly not), Rdd has spellcraft, can take autoquicken feats, and like pm it requires a caster class as prereq. with 8 lore.

The only difference is the spell slots.

In the cleric bard pm, it's like extending bard spellslots level to 9 to access epic spells right?
Thats why RDD cleric has no epic spells, also including mummy dust and gruin.

Pm vs rdd? Crit immune, stun immune, more ac, and warding vs just 4 more ab plus being dispell bait. Who is a better pnp class?
You make the maths

Dang too long reply!

[Lokey]

PnP: casting > not casting for most things, there's just too many spells that do insane things. Either one is pretty bad pnp vs the full caster base classes (almost everything is) let alone other prcs. There's probably a form you can cast in from alter self (2nd level) that includes everything either class gets and a lot more that you can have up all day at like 5th level

Isn't the easy answer just take more cleric? You'll get another cler bonus feat off a better list, you get nothing else except 20 more hp (ac bumps by 1 at 16--rdd is horrid in epic). Not even sure 15 pm is worth it to take warding over 7 or 10 for the important things (ema, well at least it's not as bad as weapon spec).

I've thought about cler/rdd, but don't see it doing much that other cler mangles do almost as well with fewer problem areas.

[Ogami]

the 1 ac for RDD is at 15 . The pm epic spells are enabled since 15, so taking pm 15 in a feat level allows epic spell, the 2nd epic feat is taken at 16 because of the bonus feat.

[mining]

RDD gets you huge gobs of bonus stats. cleric/bard/RDD vs cleric/bard/PM are completely different. There's no reason for RDD to give any bonus to dispel resistance; equally, it'd be unimportant for PM to offer dispel resistance to cleric (though it makes sense to offer it to bard, wizard, sorc). I wager there's no way for us to check which class created an effect once it's on the player => probably a WONTFIX.

[Rufio]

Isn't cleric/bard/PM sort of a bad comparison? That has been arguably one of the more broken builds for ages. I agree that it doesn't make sense for pm levels to add to cleric dispel resist.

Being dispel bait is probably the only weakness of a cleric/bard/rdd build. Otherwise it has almost everything going for it. Good ab, good ac, good damage, full casting, capable spotting, good domain access, and all the important skills. If you want better dispel resist, there are many good melee cleric builds with more caster levels if you sacrifice the benefits of the rdd start boosts. Sacrificing some abilities for the benefit of others is how character building should be.

Clerics are also the most powerful class on the server. It is really the non-pure, non-casters that need the help.

[Ogami]

I see two came out of irc hideout with upset replies. Afraid of what?

We are not talking about comparisons, (i leave this to you since you can build and insta xp two toons and make them fight to see it yourself) we are not talking about balance.
The server is already pretty well balanced, the fights are good, fun, and no one crying. theres no more i-win build, everything has a counter.

I've no problems saying the server is at its golden age.


We are only talking about increasing toons variety, for fun.
Yes just to have more fun, adjusting playability, even in pvm
After all you asked what players want.

The 15 rdd would be an interesting variant of the usual 10 rdd.
From a player's point of view.


Anyway doesn't matter, I'm going to play the game, there are books to farm, planes to clear and lowbies to level, as well as lambs to kill

*waves*

[Delisha Zrazorian]

I'm going to play the game, there are books to farm, planes to clear and lowbies to level, as well as lambs to kill

YES!