Epic shape shifters and disc.

[Tirito]

Is there any way to get max disc on a druid/shifter that plans to focus on the construct shapes (or any of the shapes that require an epic feat for that matter)?

From what i have read on the wiki (at least the way i understood it), to qualify for these shapes, you can only have druid and shifter levels. Neither of these classes will allow you to take disc, and although some of the epic shapes do get a bonus to disc, it wont be anywhere near what AB for other classes is, and will end up pretty useless.

How can a melee based toon (heck any toon) survive without disciple? Is there something i am not considering, or is there some item(s) that give a huge boost to disc or KD immunity? Seems like that iron golem i was planning will end up on his back the whole fight any time he closes to melee range.

Any ideas?

[mining]

Is there any way to get max disc on a druid/shifter that plans to focus on the construct shapes (or any of the shapes that require an epic feat for that matter)?

From what i have read on the wiki (at least the way i understood it), to qualify for these shapes, you can only have druid and shifter levels. Neither of these classes will allow you to take disc, and although some of the epic shapes do get a bonus to disc, it wont be anywhere near what AB for other classes is, and will end up pretty useless.

How can a melee based toon (heck any toon) survive without disciple? Is there something i am not considering, or is there some item(s) that give a huge boost to disc or KD immunity? Seems like that iron golem i was planning will end up on his back the whole fight any time he closes to melee range.

Any ideas?

Remember gear merges - you can get +7 disc from rings, helmets, +5 from belt.

You also have masses of str and something on the order of +20 discipline, and you can cross-class 21 discipline as a druid/shifter.

[Rufio]

you should be able to get plenty of discipline.

21 cross-classed ranks
10 epic skill focus (you have to take this at level 39)
25 str modifier
+20 construct shape
+14 rings
+7 helm

That gives you 97 discipline, which is a ton. you don't even really need the +7 rings, slave rings will be plenty. Considering you are huge sized, that is enough to resist anything. You could get a few more with that belt from the negative energy plane, but not much of a need for it, might as well wear something with saves.

[Shadowalker]

keep in mind the +14 from rings, assumes you have very hard to get end game boss rings. A more relistic number might be +12 using two slave rings (droped in the Amazons, the slaves in the slave pits drop these).

But they are right.. none of my constructs fail dicipiline on anything but a good pure fighter kd token. Not to mention, when shifted, your immune to disarm.

[Tirito]

Alright, after reading more of the wiki, taking your comments into consideration (thanks), and playing a few levels in game, I have come up with a few other questions regarding the golem shifter.

I want to be able to cast level 9 druid spells for buffs before i shift, or for other ultility if needed, but not mandatory by level 20. What do you think of taking 9 druid levels spending cross classed points in disc like you said, along with spellcraft and concentration, taking weapon focus in scimitar (iron golem weapon) blind fight, improved crit scim, then switching over to shifter for 11 levels pre epic so that i have satisfied the epic shifter requirement. Starting with 20 wisdom, if i take 1 point in wisdom every 4 levels, by 20 i will have 25 wisdom (2 short of the 27 required to take contruct shape).

Would i have a good chance of getting one of these "manuals" that grant +2 wisdom?

I really wish i were able to get my con high enough to take the 3 EDR feats, but i dont see that happening. What would you guys do for epic feats beyond possibly EWF, epic prowess, and armor skin? Epic saves feats? Epic energy resist feats?

How does the damage vulnerability work when combined with "hard" elemental resists and the % based ones.

For instance if the iron golem has 50% electrical vulnerability, and someone shot you with a spell that has a stated damage of 100 electrical damage, but you were wearing an item that granted 25% electrical resist and an item that granted 10/- electrical resist... how much damage would you take?

Another unrelated question that came to mind: i read somewhere (might be outdated, im not sure) that in relic raids, if an opposing faction member kills you, one of the items in your inventory is given to that player. If this is indeed the case, is it against the rules to fill your inventory with worthless items to mitigate the potential damage this would cause? (fill every inventory slot with a single bullet for example)

Thanks for your help.

[Amoenotep]

you gain gold from killing an opposing player in your faction. if they have no gold...you get equipment

[Lokey]

PvP item drop is from equipped items if it wasn't deactivated altogether.

Immunity/vuln/resist/soak...been explained tons here, but wonder if there's somewhere all that info would be shoveled together? For your example, you'd have 25% vuln electric.

And the golems need some rethinking

[Rufio]

I want to be able to cast level 9 druid spells for buffs before i shift, or for other ultility if needed, but not mandatory by level 20. What do you think of taking 9 druid levels spending cross classed points in disc like you said, along with spellcraft and concentration, taking weapon focus in scimitar (iron golem weapon) blind fight, improved crit scim, then switching over to shifter for 11 levels pre epic so that i have satisfied the epic shifter requirement. Starting with 20 wisdom, if i take 1 point in wisdom every 4 levels, by 20 i will have 25 wisdom (2 short of the 27 required to take contruct shape).

Would i have a good chance of getting one of these "manuals" that grant +2 wisdom?

10 levels of a prestige class is the most you can take before epic levels. I always recommend taking 12 druid levels and 8 shifter levels to maximize your attack bonus (this gives 15 bab at level 20). Getting your ab as high as possible is important here, it will be hard later if you neglect it. Don't worry about getting construct shape right at level 20, the non-feat shifter forms work well when leveling. You might find that wisdom book, but there is a good chance that you won't, so I wouldn't count on it. Just take construct shape after level 28 and save any books that you find for other builds unless you have designed the build so that is absolutely needs the book.

You are also going to want to cross-class tumble for the ac and to prevent attacks of opportunity while moving around, otherwise, things look good. It could be a good idea to take spot on your shifter levels if you have keen senses and plan on pvping, just consider that you might want epic skill focus: spot and max spot ranks if you want to be effective against hiders in pvp.

I really wish i were able to get my con high enough to take the 3 EDR feats, but i dont see that happening. What would you guys do for epic feats beyond possibly EWF, epic prowess, and armor skin? Epic saves feats? Epic energy resist feats?

Getting epic damage reduction isn't hard as long as you are willing to delay construct shape some. Shifters are not very demanding of ability points, you can pretty much dump str, dex (unless you want blinding speed) and cha. You probably won't need too much int with the 4 skill points per level that you'll be getting from druid and shifter levels. This means you can put pretty much all your ability points into wisdom and constitution to start with. If you don't want to use books, consider using water genasi as your race for the wisdom and constitution bonuses. Otherwise i'd recommend azerblood for the damage shield or deep gnome/wild elf for keen senses. As a water genasi, starting with 20 wisdom and 19 con should be reasonable, so you can take 2 con and 3 wisdom before epic levels so you can start taking epic damage reduction right away. Then you can either wait until after level 36 for construct shape, or take a few great wisdom feats and get it a bit earlier. You'd have to level with illithid or elemental forms until then, but that isn't too bad, those forms are generally effective for leveling.

Aside from epic damage reduction, the weapon feats, and armor skin, epic energy resists are always a good choice on any damage reduction build. Epic fortitude and epic will are solid choices too. Fortunately, shifters generally have some good saves, so save feats aren't as important, but they might help you out if you don't have gear to help boost your saves at the moment.

How does the damage vulnerability work when combined with "hard" elemental resists and the % based ones.

For instance if the iron golem has 50% electrical vulnerability, and someone shot you with a spell that has a stated damage of 100 electrical damage, but you were wearing an item that granted 25% electrical resist and an item that granted 10/- electrical resist... how much damage would you take?

This works the same as physical resists. Your 50% vulnerability will become 25% vulnerability with a 25% immunity item, and Immunites/Vulnerabilites always take effect before resists, so you would take 125% damage, then take 10 damage off of that.

Another unrelated question that came to mind: i read somewhere (might be outdated, im not sure) that in relic raids, if an opposing faction member kills you, one of the items in your inventory is given to that player. If this is indeed the case, is it against the rules to fill your inventory with worthless items to mitigate the potential damage this would cause? (fill every inventory slot with a single bullet for example)

Thanks for your help.

items are only given if you don't have enough gold on you. Normally in pvp you just lose some gold, and whoever landed the killing blow gets gold. This only happens in faction areas if a member of that faction kills you. You won't get gold for killing someone outside of your faction area. The item come from what you actually have equipped on you, not out of your inventory, so the only way to prevent losing a good item is to make sure you have gold on you. I can honestly say I have never lost an item, and I have only gotten items off of people a few times. I generally make sure that I have 50k gold on me before i go pvp just to make sure that is never an issue, but as far as I know, you only lose an item if you are at 0 gold (but I don't know for sure). You only lose about 500 gold when you are killed, so dying while raiding really isn't that big of a deal. Also, you never lose exp from pvp.

[Rufio]

And the golems need some rethinking

I don't know, they are great for pvm, but they don't see a lot of pvp use. They kind of suck at anything beyond soaking damage.

[Shadowalker]

Fist off.. trust Rufio in reguards to shifters.. Twig has been his test subject for 2 years now. And within several months of the shifter project, several adjustments 'nerfs' to shifters were made. Some announced , most unnannounced .

You spoke of level 9 spell buffs, but I wonder if you meant the spells avalible to level 9 druid. As Rufio said.. 12 druid and 8 shifter prepic is good progression.

Your have many epic shifter bonus feats if you go 12/28 druid/shifter, you can use these to boost your wisdom.. but dont neglect epic elemental resists. And outsider shape, this grants you free true sight as a buff and party treat. Not to mention the azer fire stream or slaad chaos lugey, these attacks can be quite effective in certain PvP situation, and in PvM can be the deciding factor with some bosses.

[Eldaquen]

Lately, I have been losing 4,000+ gp when pk'd by a rival in their faction. Not sure if the pk gold award/penalty was changed or I am just unlucky. Probably just unlucky, but seems to be less the second time around if killed by same person.

[mining]

Lately, I have been losing 4,000+ gp when pk'd by a rival in their faction. Not sure if the pk gold award/penalty was changed or I am just unlucky. Probably just unlucky, but seems to be less the second time around if killed by same person.

I think (not gospel) that its percent based.

[Bargeld]

It's a range for sure... i've lost anywhere from 100 gp to 5,000 gp, maybe even more.