9th lvl bigby demystified

User-to-User support and questions to the Developers and DM team.
Locked
disastro
Spamalot
Posts: 624
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:59 pm

9th lvl bigby demystified

Post by disastro »

ok so i crawled through the changelog and answered my own question regarding exactly how 9th level bigby is supposed to work, and uncovered the following quite interesting posts by joran and flailer around page 4 (bigby myths examined further below):

(condensed)
...
Additionally, arcane defense will improve all of target's rolls by 2, and spell focus (regular, greater, and epic) will improve the caster's rolls by 2, 4, or 6 respectively. These apply to all rolls for all Bigby spells.
..
Bigby's Interposing Hand:
If target fails a discipline check (target's discipline ranks + arcane defense + d20 vs. caster's concentration ranks + focus feats + d20) ...
...

Bigby's Crushing Hand:
Once per round the hand makes an attack on the target (Spell DC + 10 STR modifier + d20 vs target's AC). The damage is 2d8 + 1 per caster level. A successful fortitude saving throw halves the damage. Additionally, if a discipline check (as Interposing) is failed the target is stunned for that round (bypassing any stun immunities). Duration is 1 round per 2 caster levels.
a later update:

Bigbies changes:
- Bigbies Grasping and Crushing Hand now use your base rank skills for the checks rather than your adjusted skills. Ie, it will use how many skill points you've actually put into those skills (max 43 at level 40) rather than your skills plus gear, stats bonus, etc. Bigbies Grasping Hand also has the effect of Slow now if you fail the STR check rather than paralyze.

- Additionally, since the range is smaller, I wanted to put something in so a target could conteract the focuses that a caster can receive in Conjuration spell focus. So, you can have Arcane Defense: Conjuration for a increased save of +2, Skill Focus in Tumble/Discipline (for Grasping/Crushing Hand) for +2, and Epic Skill Focus for +4 bonus. I realize that those are uncommon feats, but until we can think of a better way for a target to match the spell focus feats of the caster, we'll leave those in.
this accounts for the weird numbers i see in the combat log. i'm not sure, but when they say "focus feats" I think that means spell focus conj ONLY for the attacker, and "arcane defense: conjuration (+2)", "skill focus discipline (+2)" and "epic skill focus discipline (+4)" for the defender ONLY.

as i read it skill focus concentration and epic skill focus concentration don't do anything for the attacker (contrary to some perceptions i've heard). but that hinges on what is meant by "focus feats." a dev could probably shed light on this issue.

so if you get hit by a bigby (it makes its attack roll) you basically have a 50% chance for stun if neither you nor the attacker have any focus feats as defined above, and you're both maxed on conc vs disc on the opposed roll. if the attacker has epic conj, he gets a +6 to that roll and you are going to be stunned 70% of the time. if the defender counters with epic skill focus discipline, he will be stunned only 60% of the time. if the defender invests in regular skill focus as well, the chance is back to 50%, and if the defender further invests in arcane defense conj the stun chance is down to 40%. (assuming i didnt hose up the probability calculation... not enough coffee yet.)

what numbers are used for the initial attack roll is less clear: it seems to attack your flatfooted ac from my limited experiments. i did not see my tumble or dodge ac listed in the combat log. however i may not have been properly in combat during the tests. 60ac thru improved expertise did not seem to help in several hot zone pvp combats.

pvp experience with my str based/epic skill disc toon track the 60% stun figure. basically bigby pwns low ac builds (ac < mid 60s). 60% stun means you will be reliably stunned 2 rounds in a row, which is usually more than enough time for the attacker to do whatever it is he's gonna do.

Korr
PKer
Posts: 1049
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:59 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: 9th lvl bigby demystified

Post by Korr »

Ive always seen bigby swing at your character sheet AC
Amoenotep wrote:korr is the greatest :(
ImageImage

disastro
Spamalot
Posts: 624
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:59 pm

Re: 9th lvl bigby demystified

Post by disastro »

ok after more rigorous testing the following has been uncovered:

1. bigby attack works as expected: spell dc +10 +d20 vs your full ac. EXCEPT... it ignores improved expertise ac under all circumstances. for some reason this particular source of ac is not taken into account. this last bit is what made me think it was ignoring dodge ac, but a more careful test setup showed this not to be the case.. its just improved expertise ac that gets ignored. did not test with regular expertise.

2. the subsequent opposed discipline check DOES seem to take into account concentration feats at full value. so epic skill concentration gives the attacker a +10 edge on the opposed discipline check, whereas epic skill discipline gives the defender only a +4 edge on the check. its a rough reverse engineering of what i see in the combat log, it will take a longer trial and better statistical analysis of the outcome to be more certain.

so given equal investment the discipline check appears significantly weighted towards the attacker: for 2 feats attacker can get +12 on the opposed check, whereas the defender needs three feats to get +8 (one feat of which is arcane defense: conjuration).

Korr
PKer
Posts: 1049
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:59 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: 9th lvl bigby demystified

Post by Korr »

Aracne defense conjuration also require Spell Focus Conjuration, so unless you are ALSO slinging conjuration spells mark that as 4 feats to get +8, and I think its +13 from epic and non-epic skill focus concentration (youre the tester ATM tho)
Amoenotep wrote:korr is the greatest :(
ImageImage

disastro
Spamalot
Posts: 624
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:59 pm

Re: 9th lvl bigby demystified

Post by disastro »

its never occured to me to take arcane defense.. dunno if anyone has ever taken that feat in the history of the game lol. yep, regular skill focus gives +3 not +2, my bad.

i think ive done all the testing i can do short of rolling throwaway toons.

bottom line: "build dex toons"

Korr
PKer
Posts: 1049
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:59 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: 9th lvl bigby demystified

Post by Korr »

Dex toons? What about the str check bigby does? There are currently 2 (A) toons with Arcane Defense, but its not for conjuration.
Amoenotep wrote:korr is the greatest :(
ImageImage

disastro
Spamalot
Posts: 624
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:59 pm

Re: 9th lvl bigby demystified

Post by disastro »

the other useful bigby (7th level one) does have more counters: the slow effect can be countered by fom, which itself can now be countered by mords. you also have an opportunity to dismissal your way out of it (something you cant do with 9th bigby if you get stunned). all told i'd rather be a dex toon under 7th lvl bigby than a str toon under 9th lv bigby.

interestingly, 7th bigby remains useful vs str builds. if you fail the tumble check you are slowed, but you don't make a str check to bust out of it until the next round. so a str toon will go into a one round slowed, one round normal pattern for the life of the spell.

User avatar
MLoki
Relic Raider
Posts: 819
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 8:45 am
Location: California

Re: 9th lvl bigby demystified

Post by MLoki »

Yet the 8th level bigby still remains absolete. Give it KD again at least. At most your AB will never break 50 with it. Anybody that can get hit with that AB should have the Discipline to stand up against it most of the time. Unless you are a spell slinger yourself and then you were probably just trying to do the same thing to somebody else and deserve to get Knocked Down.
Amoenotep wrote:i want your toon to be useless :)

Eldaquen
Newbie Helper
Posts: 358
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:48 am

Re: 9th lvl bigby demystified

Post by Eldaquen »

A pure druid would be hittable with 8th lvl bigbies with ab in 50's and would not have the discipline to withstand it...unless shifted to dragon.
Murphy's Law:
Nothing is as easy as it looks.
Everything takes longer than you expect.
And if anything can go wrong,
It will, at the worst possible moment.

Shhhhhhh
Wheres the donation box?
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:25 pm

Re: 9th lvl bigby demystified

Post by Shhhhhhh »

And they dont have bigby's themselves, so they didnt deserve to get knocked down too ;)

Shamed Monkey
Looking for group
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:04 pm

Re: 9th lvl bigby demystified

Post by Shamed Monkey »

MLoki wrote:Yet the 8th level bigby still remains absolete. Give it KD again at least. At most your AB will never break 50 with it. Anybody that can get hit with that AB should have the Discipline to stand up against it most of the time. Unless you are a spell slinger yourself and then you were probably just trying to do the same thing to somebody else and deserve to get Knocked Down.
I don't understand how people don't get this, why would you buff probably the most powerful series of Wizard spells even more when they're already ridiculous?
Image

Locked

Return to “NS4 Help and Support”