Divine Power and Tensers Transformation AB

[Korr]

But then againt he mage can bigsby, and neg burst, and igms and igms and igms and igms, then timestop... hit the tensers and such and kill the 2-3 monsters left . . . .

Clerics can... Hammer? FireStorm? lol

[Bargeld]

Wasn't the reason that tensers/divine whatever gave an extra attack because their BAB is raised to that of a fighter of equal caster level? Is this still ineffect, but shaving off the extra attack that would normally come with that fighter of equal level?

I tested in-game with pure warrior BAB (20 bab pre-epic) and still only received +3 AB bonus due to strength bonus. I beat on a door, but it died before I could see if I received any additional attacks.

[Lokey]

No, ab bonus is only that. Script command is ModifyNumberOfAttacks or something like that, code is a few pages back.

The part that goes epic portion of bab = (level - 20)/2 then some math tricks? The (x - 1)/5 part should have only been x/5. That 1/5 rounded it to the next whole number which was the mystery attack when you're at an odd level above 20.

[VagaStorm]

Just to clarify. If I have 16 bab pre 20 I would with the old spell get 4+1 atack with divine might, now I get 4? Ifi I have lover bab pre 20 so that I would normaly only get 3, do I now still get 4?

If so, this dos nerf a well buildt cleric, but greatly simplifies the process of making a half great one :p

[Lokey]

Yeah that. BAB 15 = 3 attacks, BAB 16 = 4 attacks (what you get by level 20). BAB gained in epic doesn't count towards the number of on hand attacks you get.

For divine power and Tenser's it's you get the ab and number of attacks of a pure melee class of your total level. Tenser's gives other bonuses, but it's a higher level spell and drops if you cast another spell before it expires. I've got a scale here somewhere, it balances out

[Bargeld]

I will just reiterate my original position on this topic:

I currently have a str based 16 fighter / 6 WM / 14 wiz with stats split for 19 int and max str with the rest.
When I cast tensers by removing my armor, my total ab gain from the spell is +3.
Current incarnation of this spell is useless for me, as I can cast bulls, stilled, and receive +2 ab.

How is this balanced?

[Fezz]

I could be wrong, but am very tired. I think you are correct, for you its next to useless.

For loki's build he posted before - 35 sorcerer / 5 Blackguard, well its Very usefull. Also like to say that a long while ago there was a DM using epic spell focus transmutaion and the Black staff spell on a similar build with tansers, and it was very effective as well.

[Celorn]

right... you can make some great builds with it as it is now..BUT the problem I have with it is that it REMOVES a LOT of other builds you could have made making the world less and less interesting to me.

I'm gonna disagree with Lokey tho, it doesn't really balance that well if you're looking at melee vs melee power.

And for the comments that mages have lots of good damage spells?! Where are you gonna get all the slots for those if you're wearing MELEE gear and would have to take lots of melee based feats.. and there are a few very nice cleric spells that can do as much (or more) damage than igms.

Spellswords are VERY difficult builds to balance out, good luck with a WM-spellsword, you've got near none, or no pre-epic feats for spells... possibly a 33/7 or 28/5/7 or 27/6/7 might be decent, but i liked the wider range of options available previously.

[disastro]

i did some experiments with blackstaff after reading that dm comment way back. as far as i can tell blackstaff is of limited effectiveness unless you cast it on a low level staff with no bonuses on it.

the +bludgeoning damage blackstaff gives will not stack with any +bludgeoning damage already inherent in the item as far as i know. since every staff past level 20 or so has +bludgeoning, this part of the spell is useless. so you're then left with the random elemental damage (which you could get from a level 2 darkfire/flame weapon) and the enhancement bonus, if you epic focus in transmutation. by the time you get a level 30 staff the +6 also gets eclipsed.

so it's great if you want to pick up a twig of a staff and make it... kind of ok. 2 handed weapon with smallest crit range and multiplier. if the dm in question was uber effective with a staff, it wasn't because of the blackstaff spell.

[Chernobyl_Glow]

I just want to clarify the two approaches to Tenser's. I think it is key to understanding why some of us think it is underpowered. You only see the flaws if your build is trying to make Tenser’s the key to the build. Sacrificing all other objectives.

1. Is a fully capable spell caster pumping his spellcasting stat i.e. CHA or INT and just happens to have Tenser's. He'll say, "Wow this spell is kind of fun when I run out of other stuff." If you change it back he’ll still say that cause he’s getting just about the max benefit anyway. Hence the reason that Lokey thinks its ok. It works pretty well for a caster who uses it this way. His others spells work great and he becomes a mediocre melee character with Tensers.

2. A melee caster such as Bargeld’s who is basically a melee build and supplementing with his magical power benefits far less. He basically just becomes a mediocre melee build with poor casting ability (speaking from experience and no offense meant to him) Understand that Spell penetration is a huge issue. Dispels are a huge issue. You have NO spell focuses. You have the lowest possible spell DC. My Spell DC as a Melee caster was 30 fully buffed on a 9th level spell. So No. You can’t Bigsy well at all. Against a DC of 30? Neg burst is the same? IGMS is handy but still has SR issue and you’ll only have a few of them. If I’m building a IGMS wizard there are a ton better ways to do it.

Essentially a spell focused caster gains some from Tenser’s and becomes a subpar but passable melee build. A melee focused caster gains very little from Tenser’s becomes a subpar melee build.

I don’t even see where Lokey’s 35 Sorc 5 BG could be overpowered purely as a melee character. Certainly not on par with a Cleric or Bard build similar in nature.

Ug. This is a pain to discuss because there are so many difficulties with Tenser’s that are just being ignored.

This is the only thing considered for helping Caster Builds?
“Noticed the calculation was wrong in Tensor's Transform and Divine Power: were adding one extra attack they shouldn't in epic. As that attack is at full BAB, put a stop to that.”

I can’t emphasize enough that the change would only help Lokey’s build by about 3 or 4 ab since he’d hit the cap. (unless he’s using a twig.) and it would only help Bargeld’s build by 4 also since he only has 14 levels of Wiz. Both would have a reduction in Number of attacks.

What’s the harm? Explain to me a build that would have ridiculous AB if the spell were changed? It seems that the general consensus is that a Melee Caster should not be allowed to have ridiculous AB. Only other classes.

Best Regards,

- Glow -

[Quiett]

Not meaning to drag up an older thread, but I read something in it that I wanted to comment on.

I haven't figured out how to quote on a page other than the latest, but someone mentioned a Fig/Wiz/PM build would be a risk. He're the quote copy/pasted.

'I assume Ftr/wiz/pm is a risk because a PM’s Spell progression continues in the existing class as he advances in PM? If so, you are absolutely right that this would be an unfair advantage. I had also recognized that a Ftr5/wiz3/pm32 might be a risk but the wiki is limited on PM info and I’ve never built one. But if this is the only risk then there should other ways to compensate for that so that the rest of us are able to use Tensers.'


It would not be a threat at all. PM's get extra spells when they gain levels at 1/2 the rate a wiz would, but the power/dc/length of the spell is based solely on wiz/sorc levels. So in this version that Bargeld proposed, it would be a huge nerf to the PM builds.

Just my two cents.

[Lokey]

It would take one script line to make PMs full casters or 9/10 caster like PnP (it would take considerably more to add spells, but is doable). Will not happen because of all the other stuff Bio gave them to compensate because they didn't do that and the summoning bits that were added.

[Korr]

Ok bringing up an old thread again, I couldnt find specifics on what Lokey did to this spell. I saw the things about the extra attacks.

Do tensers and Divine power workt he same way now?

or Does divine power make your effective BAB that of a fighter

and Tenser give you 1/2 caster level to your attack bonus (and the str/dex/ac)?

[Chernobyl_Glow]

Tenser's and Divine Power still are the same. Basically, at level 40, Tenser's and DP will bring your base attack to 30. They both do some other stuff as well but almost all of it is negated by the time a char reaches lvl 40. A pure fighter will have 5 more ab than you because of pure class bonus plus he'll have a temporary ab bump from Warlord's might.

So, if you are being creative and trying something new... or if you think a melee focused mage centered around Tenser's might be cool?,... Make a Cleric.

- Glow -

[Bargeld]

Or just don't put all your eggs into tenser's basket

Demon doesn't use it. It's still only +1 ab more than a bulls, (i will eventually be able to go from plate to robes, forgoing still spell, and allowing dex ac bonus from it) and the temp HP get me from 475 to almost 600. Maybe I should try endurance and compare, lol. It's kinda nice as a backup for when you get debuffed and want a quick pick-me-up in 1 round.