2handed help and support

User-to-User support and questions to the Developers and DM team.
TheStoneOne
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Post by TheStoneOne »

I found the same probs when i made a fighter/rogue/scthe wpnmaster

he was dwarf and could solo almost all of frostdale by himself cause of the +4 dwarf ac vs giants the maxed out tumble for my lvl and the massive amount of sneak damage + sythe crits i was getting around 300 damage crits on a sneak att and 260 from memory on a no sneak had expertise as well - it was such fun to play it as well i love the flame harvester :-)

I agree something needs to be done about 2 hand wpns cause there fun to play 2 hander swords etc but as soon as u hit round 30 or pvp someone your a dead dwarf really.

might be possible to try something with fighter/bard/ wpn maaster - song AC??

or even paladin/COT/wpnmaster again bonus feats from COT is good and divine shield ?? take expertise with both builds as well.

probably wont make up for the shield but gets you closer :-)

kgb
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Post by kgb »

TheStoneOne wrote:paladin/COT/wpnmaster
Probably an oversight but you cannot have two prestige classes.



Question: If AC seems to be the problem is there a way to add an AC Modifier to these wpns. So perhaps a +4 above and beyond the level of the wpn.

For example: At level 20 items are usually of +4 enhancement. However give a double-handed wpn a +4 AC Modifier or +4 Deflection AC Modifier making it a +8 AC or +8 Deflection AC Modifier.

I do remember the Warlords Axe has a Deflection AC Modifier of -1 so perhaps it is possible to use AC Modifiers on wpns. Players could take them to the forge to get upgraded or maybe a script or token is an option.

Thoughts?
Tres Nawt {CLAD}, Tres Baf {CLAD}, Tres Leyana {CLAD}, Tres Q'sara {CLAD}

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watchwood
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Post by watchwood »

It'd work. Personally, I'd prefer to see the implementation of AC bonuses based on the ranks in parry that a toon has, but that's just me.
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Dynmi
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Post by Dynmi »

I've asked for a similar ac bonus to quarter staves, but that got a definate "no" however there is a damage reduction added to most highlevel 2 handed weapons.
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kgb
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Post by kgb »

The problem I see with the damage reduction and why sword and board is more popular extends beyond the gift AC bonus a shield gives you. It adds flexibility in damage types resisted.

Most mobs from the lowest orc/gobbos have different wpns. A shield and armor set up affords you protection from two damage sources which is vital in a low-magic world where immunities are not common.

If you keep damage resistance on wpns then the damage has to either be split between a couple of types ie slash/pierce, pierce/bludg, slash/bludg or if kept as a single type needs to be upped from the miniscule amounts to be at least 1.5 to 2 x the standard at that item level.

The parry suggestion would be good similar to the tumble AC bonus but at the moment there are a lot of skills that I would see as required in NS because of the way the world is set up even if they are not normal for the class for example concentration for fighters to combat taunts etc. It would spread your skill set pretty thin and make tomes of intelligence worth a premium!

In the end it's about encouraging the use of different wpns and whatever is decided to achieve that aim should be for this purpose and not to make two-handers the next uberness ;)

Just had a thought - Could an AC Modifier be added if a player took the Exotic Weapon Proficiency since quite a number of double-handed wpns come from this proficiency?
Of course Greatsword, Spear, Flails as well as small stature folk would miss out. Throwing some ideas out there!
Tres Nawt {CLAD}, Tres Baf {CLAD}, Tres Leyana {CLAD}, Tres Q'sara {CLAD}

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P. Fricebottle
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Post by P. Fricebottle »

Um....just so you guys know, all two-handed weapons come with some Bludgeoning Immunity and Resist.
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TheStoneOne
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Post by TheStoneOne »

Point is the immunity they give adds almost 0 to your survival the point is they suck plain and simple which is why almost no plays a 2 hander wpn having said that there must be ways ive seen some pretty slick duel wielders out there and they dont have a shield or the 2 hander immunity maybe those ppl would care to share ? i still think you must include bard for the song ac and tumble :_)

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Post by kgb »

@ Frice
P.Fricebottle wrote:Um....just so you guys know, all two-handed weapons come with some Bludgeoning Immunity and Resist
I realise there are immunities on these wpns, what is under discussion is the level and whether its application should be widened.

@ TheStoneOne
TheStoneOne wrote:some pretty slick duel wielders out there and they dont have a shield or the 2 hander immunity maybe those ppl would care to share
True the reason why this is popular is because invariably all these builds are DEX based which A) Increases your AC, B) Can still benefit your AB through Wpn Finesse and, C) Coupled with Monk and No Armor can give you a wis bonus to your AC.

Commonly Wpn Masters are Strength-based which rules out any AC bonus from pumping more into str (obviously) or they can water down their build by splitting their level ups per 4 levels with Dex and Greater Dex in epic.

The point is trying to encourage both variety of players. I have been on the dexxers side of the argument when it came to Bigby's and I am on the strength-based side on this issue of two-handers.

Encouraging players away from cookie-cutter builds should be in the minds of players and devs alike to avoid staleness.

When was the last time you saw a Ranger build utilising a two-bladed sword - probably because its not finessable. Though there is nothing wrong with str-based rangers except their AC would suck unless they used monk in their build to take advantage of the 14 WIS they pumped points into for their spells.
Tres Nawt {CLAD}, Tres Baf {CLAD}, Tres Leyana {CLAD}, Tres Q'sara {CLAD}

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disastro
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Post by disastro »

P. Fricebottle wrote:Um....just so you guys know, all two-handed weapons come with some Bludgeoning Immunity and Resist.
this is not true. two SIDED weapons do have imm and resist (double axe double sword etc.), but regular 2 HANDED weapons (greataxe greatsword scythe) do not. at least I have never found 2 handed weapons that do.

the only exception is the spear, which is a 2 handed weapon and generally sports resist and imm.

i have tried to do the "max damage" thing in 2 different builds. it does not work well past level 25-30. ftr-wm-rogue str half ogre build was pure pure damage and he died a LOT. frightening damage until someone noticed him then he just ... died. he never made it out of frostdale.

second attempt was a ftr wm bard with lots of bard, good song buffs, self buffs through spells, earth genasi for defense. umd for premonition scrolls. got a lot further than the first max damage attempt but his usefulness lasts exactly as long as his soaks, which dwarves rip through very fast. premo helps but the 2 handed axe dwarves have a weapon that beats the +5 soak premo gives.

basically my armor class is so low that almost every swing will hit (48-49 ac vs dwarves with 41 ab..) , so the soaks have to provide all defense and they go fast. there is a point where ac is so low vs enemies that buffing it is throwing good money after bad.. there's not a lot of practical difference between 40 ac and 45 ac vs planars. since you cant change armor in battle you have to be extra careful vs mixed damage type enemies, mixed resist armor is your best friend.

FYI i've notice that if you cast premonition FIRST and then activate the genasi power, premo will soak up damage until it's used up then the genasi soak will kick in (making it last much longer). if you do genasi token first then premo the genasi soak will get used up before the premo and you lose the ac bonus.

I don't know if the double-headed weapon resists would make a difference but if devs think it's required to balance the shieldless double headed weapon user, then the same logic should apply to the shieldless 2 handed weapon user. 2 headed weapons give 2 extra attacks (and chances for crits, and medium weapon damage on the off hand for only -2 ab), so i'm not sure why a 2 handed weapon is perceived as being strong enough to not need this defensive boost.

edit: the main issue i think is that the mod is designed for characters with +9 ac from shields and 25% imm/20/dr (if not 50% imm from well selected armor/shield combos, not to mention elemental imm that is usually thrown in). If you dont have access to this kind of defense then you are a long step behind what the planar area designers are balancing against. in the stock game a shieldless toon would be down only 3-6 AC and not so much immunity so it's a decent tradeoff, but here shields are uber.

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Post by TheBestDeception »

disastro wrote:If you dont have access to this kind of defense then you are a long step behind what the planar area designers are balancing against.
"Shields are uber" would have been enough. To suggest the planar areas are imbalanced, however, would be to suggest that by "fixing" planar areas, the problem is solved. It is not.

One of my main PvP characters is a Halberd user who can solo the dwarven planes (with or without EGen ability). That is not the issue. [Here's a hint - he is none of what the previous posters have stated to be essential to being a 2handed user: 700+ HP, Weapon Master, Dmg soak]

The problem is specifically found in the fact that the AC loss from wielding a 2-handed weapon does not justify picking up its trivial bonuses. The reason I omit dmg resistance in the "problem" is because i almost never fight people who can resist a 2-damage-type weapon, so that is not the issue.
But, it's such a draining job that, until you've DMed on an NWN server yourself, you the playerbase, have got to cut the DMs some slack. - Flailer

disastro
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Post by disastro »

TheBestDeception wrote:
disastro wrote:If you dont have access to this kind of defense then you are a long step behind what the planar area designers are balancing against.
"Shields are uber" would have been enough. To suggest the planar areas are imbalanced, however, would be to suggest that by "fixing" planar areas, the problem is solved. It is not.
i didnt suggest the planar areas were imbalanced or needed to be changed at all. I only stated that they are created assuming characters will have (quite powerful) shields, which is entirely valid and correct. as a result of that logical step, shieldless characters are at a big disadvantage with not much to make up for it.

we basically agree.

in order to compete in these areas the 2 handed advantage has to somehow compensate for the uberness of a shield, otherwise it's a net loss. I'm not suggesting anything specific, only pointing out that 1.5x extra damage dice has not matched the benefit of a 25% phys/25% elemental/dr20 shield on the builds i have tried. it's a net loss right now.

i've gotten a little tired of trying and failing 2 handed builds myself, however I will have a friend try out a few ideas on his next build (hint: he will have a very good shield fallback option at the cost of many feats).

edit: also when i say shields are uber i dont mean that a 2 handed person has trouble doing damage against them, (especially 2handers that do dual damage types..) i mean that shields are so good that in order to make a challenging area the devs have to have the mobs hit that much harder.

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Post by disastro »

i ran another experiment with a pale master with tons of defensive feats vs amazons (level 27 toon vs zons). it was a halfhearted test since i didnt put any feats in the 2handed greataxe i used for the test (no improved crit or focus, but using a str based toon).

survivability was ok but since you are guaranteed to get hit on every swing it becomes a pot chugging exercise vs groups of 3 or more. even without crits a steady stream of hits will wear you down in fairly short order. however without the weapon master goodies the damage output was not enough for fast takedowns. i partied with a shield using weapon master and he was still far more effective, both dealing out big damage and still avoiding most return fire (he was also level 27).

immunity to crits clearly helps vs the Sudden Death syndrome (duh) and gives you enough time to chug heals. however you'll be doing that a lot and it's not worth the slight boost in damage. Looks like you need wm to make any go of a 2 handed weapon.

I will try again with a greatsword (much better crit range than axe, and if you're not a wm crit range seems to help more than crit multiplier.)

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-Chronepsis-
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Post by -Chronepsis- »

I've just skimmed thro what ppl are saying bout 2 hander weapons. I have some suggestions maybe to help you lvl, but being a pvper is different. I have a 2 hander wm and he can solo dwarves, he is now lvl 36, but even lower lvls he could still solo em. What I did was use another weapon such as a rapier which I personally think is the best lvling weapon here on this server, and also use a sheild. This should help you get along better even fighting ice giants. The sheild gives extra ac plus extra resists and immunity as well which helps a ton.

As for 2-hander wm, they are good. Mine isnt a caster either, but ive taken some power buffed clerics and surprised em pretty good :). I think ppl need to work their builds around with what they have, such as sub-races which give some nice bonuses, or feats such as damage reduction. I have no complaints bout 2-hander weapons, I just cant wait to get mine to lvl 40 so I can have some real fun.

disastro
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Post by disastro »

-Chronepsis- wrote:I've just skimmed thro what ppl are saying bout 2 hander weapons. I have some suggestions maybe to help you lvl, but being a pvper is different. I have a 2 hander wm and he can solo dwarves, he is now lvl 36, but even lower lvls he could still solo em. What I did was use another weapon such as a rapier which I personally think is the best lvling weapon here on this server, and also use a sheild.
definitely looks like the way to go. i'd say the one hander is your main weapon, and the 2 hander you bring out only on special occasions.

costs a lot of feats and at least 13 wm levels to get a second weapon up to snuff, you'd have to weigh that into your overall build to see if it's worth other things you could spend on.

though if the best part of your 2hander wm is his one handed config, ya gotta stop and think lol.

TheStoneOne
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Post by TheStoneOne »

Ok here is my idea and yes its cheesey and btw lol someone who has already posted told me about this a while ago...........

Pally / sorcerer hehehe

Now trying to remember what he said he was very hazy lol he ended up with mid 60 ac no shield and mid to high 60 ab

He had epic warding epic mage armor tensers and surprise surprise black staff with all three focuses now this can be tweaked a little i guess anyone have a lvling mod can try this i need to download mine again im reverting to and older machine cause mine blue up badly now on this your crits arent huge obviously but the staff is twohanded cana be changed to any other martial (your a pally) 2 handed wpn like a great sword etc i guess it can be done you just have to be 100% on what your gonna do with all your feats and be patient i guess. Im not patient nor do i know what im doing building stuff im the 1st to admit it :-) but half the fun is trying

From memeory a while ago u guys had some uber tornament where this toon was used and remained un deafeted so hey disastro give it a crack think outside the square like a certain other ( not the person above) DCN fellow told me today !!!

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