bigby

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:17 pm

this happened the other night. as i was fending off a high lvl mage that was shooting bigby hands at me i noticed somthing odd. i kept falling down. this in and of itself isn't that odd...many ppl fall down lots and lots of times. the odd thing is that beat the grapple 2 times in a row to fail the third and fall. this wasn't over the course of a battle...this was 3 grapple attempts in 1 round. i would fall every round because the bigby would grapple until it finally held me. in doing this i would have several "you broke the grip of this hand" messages above my head.

has anyone else come across something this odd with bigby lately?

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:21 pm

That is odd...

You should only ever have 1 bigby of any kind on you at one time, even if from several different casters.

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:23 pm

was 1 caster firing 1 bigby at a time. it just so happens i'm ultra cool and need 6 more bigby's cast on me. this still doesn't change the fact it happened for every one of them.

good thing i killed the mage to save on my rep.

Zhorn · Post by **Zhorn** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:05 am

Yeah wtf!

I sort of gave up after having 6 of them removed...... I think I had another 10 or so but figured you probably deserved the kill. Well that and I ran out of red stuff from you hitting me over the head /ROFL

Sorcs r0xx0r!

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:00 am

yeah...but why the 3 grapples/round? it seemed to keep grappling until it succeeded and i fell to the ground.

Core · Post by **Core** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:38 am

I agree Bigbys spells are completly bugged. I thought you were supposed to be able to make a fort, and/or discipline check? Apperently Bigbys crushing hands is an "I win button" that has been reworked so that it can not be avoided. Take what just happend to me a moment ago. Maxed disipline all discipline gear on around 56 discipline, hard enough for anyone to knockdown right. So I'm walking in with freedom of movment, decent fort save I recall about 32 with gear. A sorc about the same level as me casts bigbys bam i drop to my knees... Great now I can't do anything at all. What happend to my saveing throw, where is my discipline? Ok now I'll just wait for IGMS to kill me because well theres no saving throw for that either.

Nerf the hell out of all bigbys spells, or remove them completly from the game. Something is wrong with bigbys here and I know I've avoided situations like this on other servers. Why is bigbys such an "I win button"? How much discipline does it take to avoid? do I need epic and normal skill focuses and also 4-5 +10 items to discipline or what. I mean come on fighter classes can not escape the bigbys, but yet devistating critical is just too much....

I'd really like to know why bigbys is making more then usual grapple attempts and why the spell is buffed up beyond normal limits of discipline. If a level 20 wizard can keep a level 40 warrior type knocked down indefinatly something is wrong, please do not tell me this is the case. I like playing casters as much as everyone else but bigbys needs some serious nerfing. Or at least someone look at code changes to determine why someone with great fort, discipline, freedom of movement, good str stats would get completly incapacitated without breaking free once while he gets 5-6 IGMS slowly sent toward him.

I agree with original poster something is definatly wrong with bigby spells. I don't recall ever seeing my fort roll either, fort is supposed to negate the entire spell correct? I dunno... I hope someone can enlighten us. At least post specific the modifications to the spell.

Epistaxis · Post by **Epistaxis** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:50 am

I think bigbys has been changed here in NS4 to follow the pnp D&D rules. and you will need a high str and preferable be size large to win the grapple check. Do not think discipline is used at all.

I seem to rememeber that I could use my shifter to turn into a minotaur whom is large to escape being knocked down by the bigby. And someone once told that his über high str red dragon disciple was allmost immune to bigbys.

Joran · Post by **Joran** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:40 pm

I'm all for a round of bigby's nerfs....however we might get mobbed by all the caster lovers around here :-)

Zhorn · Post by **Zhorn** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:00 pm

Bastions of War made all of their Bigby spells into Discipline checks (with the casters level and any Evocation focuses factored in).

That seemed to work quite well, though I only ever play wizards and sorcs.

Then again I pine for the days of unresistable DC100 SHADOW WEB!!!!!

OMG bring that back!

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:07 pm

Is there any take on allowing dex builds a chance against bigsbies? I don't like to complain, but it really is an "I win button." See, strength builds actually have a half-chance of breaking the kid. Rogues, nadda. I'd really really really really like to see a reflex save to dodge the hand, because the hand really seems materialistic to me. I know rogues have a chance to dance (if not pure), but if you pop up for one second for an attack on the mage they'll get a quickened one on your little butt.

Bigsby=Devastating Critical

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:01 am

Bigbies is no where near as powerful as a DC56 death attack 2 times/round that skips past all saves bonuses but fort.

Cluster · Post by **Cluster** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:33 pm

All you need to do to bigbys is make the saves apparent and sensible to be balanced with NS4 stats. Have a fort save to negate the spell, a discipline check (none of this vague 'grapple' check crap) to avoid the knockdown effect, and a reflex save to avoid damage from those that do damage.

Bigby's Interposing Hand (Level 5)
Instead of keeping this a static -10 ab with no save, why not make it something like taunt where a check is made once/round. If the victim beats the casters check then the hand is dispelled. If they match, it goes to 0 but doesnt dispell, and any difference beyond that gives -x ab to a max of 10(or maybe some dirivative from caster levels -1/3-4 levels)

Bigby's Forceful Hand (Level 6)
No save just a straight disipline check to negate the hand. Also, the duration on the length of the knockdown would be variable. A roll of 1d2 + 1d2/10 caster levels maybe?

Bigby's Grasping Hand (Level 7)
Fort save to negate. A discipline check to avoid KD. And maybe a reflex save(possibly modified from general spell DC) to allow the hand to be evaded, dispelling it.

Bigby's Clenched Fist (Level

Same as Grasping with damage after failing reflex save.

Bigby's Crushing Hand (Level 9)
Same as Grasping with damage after failing reflex save.

Some notes on the saves.
The fort save to negate lvl 7-9 spells could have some sort of special type added to them. And have items that provided a bonus to saves vs these particular spells. Belts would be a good place for this, better save for the bigby, or more hp for the igms coming behind it...

My idea for the discipline checks would be that for a comparable level caster to toon level and concentration in feats, there would be about a 50% chance of making the disc check. The victim also has the bonus of items(easy to get 17-20 here) and also has a d20 roll. I dont believe a mage should be able to KD a toon dedicated to his displine. So i thought of something like this for the DC.

xd6 + 1/caster level + 1d10/focus or +5/focus.

The xd6 would be set higher per spell level. 6/1d6, 7/2d6, 8/3d6, 9/4d6.

This doesnt make it too difficult for melees to dodge the KD attempts it gets hit with, and they can also have it dispelled with dismissal. This could even be reworked to be higher, as even the lvl 9 bigs with the d10/focus is easy to avoid. 4d6 (say a 20 is rolled), lvl 40 mage, epic focus (rolls 25) gives an 85 DC. This isnt that hard to beat, as good str toons can get 70-85 discipline and still have their d20 roll on top of it. On a bad set of rolls, say 10 + lvl 30 mage and gr focus (rolls 5), would be a 45 DC, Quite easy to beat.

As for the reflex save, make it so the reflex builds have a chance to dispell the hand. but only with some dedication to them. Lower than a 25 reflex should not do this easily, but those with 30+ should have no problem rolling it within the first 5 rounds.

At least this way their a bit more uniform, and require more dedication on the mages part to make them more usefull.

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 10:33 pm

JesterOI wrote:Bigbies is no where near as powerful as a DC56 death attack 2 times/round that skips past all saves bonuses but fort.

Woah, I didn't know it was that powerful. Almost all the servers I've been on had it disabled so I've never seen it. Besides, I'm rogue most of the time anyway.

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:06 pm

I was jsut averaging too... The DC to beat is the modified attack rolls.
Consider a good cleric can get 70 easy...
Then add in the fact that rapier, scims, and kukris get TONS of crits.
Then take a dualwielding hasted cleric...

Ya. It would be in if it wasn't hardcoded, but the devs can't change it without a hak.

PeregrineV · Post by **PeregrineV** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:57 am

Aren't the hands the ones that can be "attacked" and have hit points? Or am I a few editions behind?

Can these hand spells have hp the same way, to be attacked by non-targets to get them dispelled?