Divine Power and Tensers Transformation AB

[Amoenotep]

shield is scrollable

[Shhhhhhh]

While its nice to ask for changes so more builds are possible, please dont ask for changes that could make current builds and characters not used anymore.

[Chernobyl_Glow]

I see Tep. Good point but it further diminishes a Tenser's build as Shield will basically eliminate the only fall back.

Shhhhhhh, I really didn't think that I wasn't asking for changes to current builds. Other than a Tenser's PM build if and only if Tenser's was changed. If that is the build that you're working on though you are going to have the same AB problem. Except that you'll be able to stay in the fight longer. Feel free to elaborate because your point shouldn't be ignored.

Further, I'm not really expecting changes. Anything short of the full str Tenser's would be a waste of time in my opinion. The challenge for the dev team is that the nature of the spell creates wide swings of ability. A drastic transformation if you will. Moderate swings are easier to balance than wild ones. Thus, the reason that they've essentially just taken this highly variable spell out of play.

Thanks,

- Glow -

[Daltian]

As far as good AB? 60-65? Is that asking too much? What does a kobold have? Or a bard or a cleric? How else am I going to hit a kobold or a bard or anything else with ab of 55? Monks, Rogues, and Assassins have viable builds with 50’s AB because they are attacking with a sneak which bypasses some AC. Those are not straight melee characters and not comparable.

LOL. 60-65? Thats very high AB mate! And I don't think monks have sneak attack, kobold has only 3 attacks and way worse buffs then mage. And kobold not only can't cast but can't even use items such as kits or spells that come from items (ring of health for example). Also, if you cast something in tenser shape, all you need to do is cast tenser again. If you unshift as kobold you are practically dead. They arent really comparable, and you don't really expect to 1 spell to give you ability comparable to entire dedicated prestige class?

IGMS for a tenser’s build is a fall back or a finisher. If it is going to be your primary attack then you’ll basically wish you’d ditched even trying to be a Tenser’s build. Your damage correction of 90 vs 50 is valid. I didn’t do the math. I just remember realizing that I would do more damage if I could just hit the opponent by flanking (which was about the only way).

Hmm. Finisher you say. So you want 60-65 ab which is super high ab, but having finishers is handy too. You can't have it all. I don't see tenser being bad as it is. You are complaining divine power is different. Well, yes it is. We don't want all casters to be the same. Tenser is very good and usable in many builds.

[Lokey]

DC > 40 Wail, auto-still, auto-quicken and mummy. If you think I need to be better, have at it (I slot an eagle's splendor, forgot to cast it, have another great charisma feat to take.) 3 class primary caster...maybe for acid arrow, ice storm. Too much of the good stuff is SR: yes, so you need caster levels to hit the clers and druids (spell resistance spell), subraces with SR and maybe monks (if they can actually do something to you )

[Lorkar]

Frack the rest Lokey, I wanna know where you got the pic.

[Lokey]

It's in the game data. http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Ot ... il&id=1325 is pretty handy to have.

[-BannyD-]

ooh updated one...i had the old one.

itd be cool though if people could see your custom pictures too though

[Shhhhhhh]

I see Tep. Good point but it further diminishes a Tenser's build as Shield will basically eliminate the only fall back.

Shhhhhhh, I really didn't think that I wasn't asking for changes to current builds. Other than a Tenser's PM build if and only if Tenser's was changed. If that is the build that you're working on though you are going to have the same AB problem. Except that you'll be able to stay in the fight longer. Feel free to elaborate because your point shouldn't be ignored.

Further, I'm not really expecting changes. Anything short of the full str Tenser's would be a waste of time in my opinion. The challenge for the dev team is that the nature of the spell creates wide swings of ability. A drastic transformation if you will. Moderate swings are easier to balance than wild ones. Thus, the reason that they've essentially just taken this highly variable spell out of play.

Thanks,

- Glow -

a 30 PM+ 9 or 10 wiz build can use tenser to get decent AB at least. With your proposal to ignore pm lvls for giving +AB the ab would drop quite a bit.
Now maybe the lvl 30 summon is good enough that you can say a char like that doesnt need AB, but I tried lvling one just relying on the summon before the whipe and its really terrible to lvl, tho i did use tenser already back then too.
Going spellsbased with only 10 wiz lvls really doesnt get you far, so trying to hit things is the only option, unless you want to just lvl while being afk and let the summon fight

[Chernobyl_Glow]

Daltain. Compared to a similar approach with a Cleric or Bard self buffed at 55 isn't good. Typical self buffed melee bard or cleric is 65, dispelable and weak in all the same ways an arcane melee build is. PWK is their finisher. I'm not comparing Monks, Rogues or Assassins. Different purposes to those builds. Remember that you attempted to compare them.

You are complaining divine power is different. Well, yes it is. We don't want all casters to be the same. Tenser is very good and usable in many builds.

I agree. They SHOULD be different. Right now Divine Power (4th level and allowing more spells to be cast) and Tenser's (6th level not allowing other spells to be cast) are the SAME. This is the only spell that gives an arcane caster more AB. The cleric has three others if you include WAR domain ability. Which is a difference of about 8 which is the exact amount that a similar build substituting Wiz for Cleric would gain from Tensers.

...

Lokey, Nice build but it doesn't sound like your focus is on Tensers. I assume your SS is as you are buffed for battle? Then a change to Tensers would likely give you about 4 more attack. As it is you are probably getting 8 and if changed you'd get 12 cause you'd reach the cap. That seems like it would put you at about 49. DC 40 wail is your trump card. This isn't a Tenser's dependant build though. Your build will is an example of one that would make Tenser's viable. But if you are left with nothing but Tenser's then you'll struggle. 49 AC? Is the shot without gear? How is your discipline and spot? I'm not criticizing your build. I'm just saying that its built to be a caster. Hence your Wail DC. Not primarily a Tensers user. And how did you get that many Epic Feats?

Tenser's isn't easy to make abuse like you all think. You basically have to build a fighter while taking levels as a caster. Therefore, you'll have to sacrifice almost all of your spell focuses and you'll have to be taking Greater Str or Dex to improve your attacks not improve your spell DC. Sure a change to Tenser's would make your build better but it would just make you a marginal melee attacker. (which by the looks of things might be better for us)

Shhhhhhh, I understand your concern. My only contention is that the spell is not implemented the way it was designed. The way I intended to use it was not overpowered. Daltain said that it would be overpowered for a PM. I personally don't think that Tenser's is the dynamic that makes the combo overpowered. Its the stuff that you already have. i.e. Immunities, great DR and high AC. The change for you would be that Tensers would give you 5 AB instead of 10. Your build is similar to Lokey's in that you are focused on other things vs melee attack. You use Tenser's as a fall back if the other things fall short. I'll leave that to other to evaluate but untimately it shouldn't be a factor regarding the other mages that would like to use Tensers as their primary function. Isn't the intent of the PM to rely on the Summons mixing in some spell casting, buffing and death attacks? The change I recommended would just mean that you'd have to apply more focus on Tenser's to be able to gain nice benefit from it. Ftr6/Wiz24/PM10 would be pretty powerful. It would change your build and approach a bit.

- Glow -

[Lokey]

Had to test the +4 charisma book for bugs

Spell focus and greater spell focus taken pre-epic. Power attack + cleave. Leaves three, spell focus, greater spell focus. Something else.

Epic (4 or 5 class, 7 normal): mummy dust, warding, epic focus. Auto still x 3. Have auto quicken 1 at least, don't know if I'll be able fit 3 and great charisma 2.

Spell list does need work...that isn't really the point now. (Level 6 spell choice is rough, I think I'd give up 2 level 8 for another lol. Mass haste, Tensor's, forget what else.) There isn't much else besides haste arcane that'll help ac, I don't think there's anything that would stack or at least improve upon higher end items.

I'm not entirely familiar with all the pure class abilities. Maybe there's something there...but the best ac I see on the upper level non-polymorphed, non-everything to ac chars runs a little over 50--and those tend to be Earth Genasi.

I guess I don't see a problem with the above character contributing...you have the arcane blasting/mass death/protection plus one spell makes you decent in melee. How much more powerful do you need to be?

ETA: Yes I know Earth Genasi would have better AC + feat and better stats except str and con. However if a halfogre sorc can do something above say level 10...

[Shhhhhhh]

Shhhhhhh, I understand your concern. My only contention is that the spell is not implemented the way it was designed. The way I intended to use it was not overpowered. Daltain said that it would be overpowered for a PM. I personally don't think that Tenser's is the dynamic that makes the combo overpowered. Its the stuff that you already have. i.e. Immunities, great DR and high AC. The change for you would be that Tensers would give you 5 AB instead of 10. Your build is similar to Lokey's in that you are focused on other things vs melee attack. You use Tenser's as a fall back if the other things fall short. I'll leave that to other to evaluate but untimately it shouldn't be a factor regarding the other mages that would like to use Tensers as their primary function. Isn't the intent of the PM to rely on the Summons mixing in some spell casting, buffing and death attacks? The change I recommended would just mean that you'd have to apply more focus on Tenser's to be able to gain nice benefit from it. Ftr6/Wiz24/PM10 would be pretty powerful. It would change your build and approach a bit.

- Glow -

I'm sure that would be pretty powerfull, but also a total change of the build. If i only wanted 10 PM lvls theres lots of builds possible and no need to focus on tenser at all.
But to get the nice summon you need 30 PM lvls, to get a decent build that doesnt take forever to lvl, you need tenser to give you a nice AB.
The build untill lvl 40 at least totally relies on tenser, its not some 'fall back'
Like I said, I have no problem with suggesting changes, but when I see something suggested that would totally ruin my build and not only mean that I'd have to remake, but also that I'll probably never see the lvl30 summon, I cant help but comment that I'm not a big fan of it

[Bargeld]

Weapon choices and the lack of supporting warrior feats? I notice a crit of 19-20, probably from ONLY a keen weapon... no improved crit, nor any WM class bonuses here. 14-41 damage x3 with an axe? LOL. Welcome to a monk/sd's world. You can hit pretty much anything from the shadows, doing more than 30 damage is the problem.

Epic discipline feat and discipline gear? Dorfs will probably still knock you on your butt and premonition only goes so far. Hope you have MANY backup weapons. In coffers. On mules.

Would it require a change in the amount of attacks? Since the BAB wouldn't be raised, I would assume you would retain your normal amount of attacks, not an increase. You are looking at a low end of 2 attacks/ rnd for 20 caster levels pre-epic al the way across the spectrum to 4 attacks/ rnd with a more warrior based caster. Most would be in that middle range where the shifter/druids are stuck, with 3 attacks/ rnd. Add 1 more attack from haste.

[Daltian]

At least you have haste, druid and druid shifter is usually out of that luck. And you can take improved crit for your weapon, shifter is out of that luck, we can never get improved crit for ours (talking about epic forrms and the fact that druid/shifter cant take exsotic or martial weapon if its pure).

[Celorn]

As far as good AB? 60-65? Is that asking too much? What does a kobold have? Or a bard or a cleric? How else am I going to hit a kobold or a bard or anything else with ab of 55? Monks, Rogues, and Assassins have viable builds with 50’s AB because they are attacking with a sneak which bypasses some AC. Those are not straight melee characters and not comparable.

LOL. 60-65? Thats very high AB mate! And I don't think monks have sneak attack, kobold has only 3 attacks and way worse buffs then mage. And kobold not only can't cast but can't even use items such as kits or spells that come from items (ring of health for example). Also, if you cast something in tenser shape, all you need to do is cast tenser again. If you unshift as kobold you are practically dead. They arent really comparable, and you don't really expect to 1 spell to give you ability comparable to entire dedicated prestige class?

Hmm. Finisher you say. So you want 60-65 ab which is super high ab, but having finishers is handy too. You can't have it all. I don't see tenser being bad as it is. You are complaining divine power is different. Well, yes it is. We don't want all casters to be the same. Tenser is very good and usable in many builds.

?? I don't know how you're building, but pretty much -all- of the melee builds I design have a minimum of 60ab and 59ac, ie: my strength-bard pre wipe could hit 71ab and 69ac even more if you factor in taunt, and the lvl38 curse song... (I believe he had only read a +2 CHA book, possibly a +2 STR as well) - NOTE; that ac in this build isn't possible post-wipe with the nerfs to earth gen and bardsong, but he'd still get fairly close to that.


(in-game shot pre-wipe in the negative plane)
----

BUT this is off topic.... When the ns4 devs originally changed tensors, fireworks went off in my head! What fun you could have, get a nice wiz or sorc build with some melee classes lightly mixed in and you can get +15-17ab with tensors -- kind of makes up for having a LOT lower hit points, crappy fort saves and many other issues.

So to compare say, a CLERIC with a Mage (sorc/wiz) melee build:

1. mages with 12 con get 7 HP per lvl base, clerics get 10 - hmm ( So base HPs at 40 is: 280 hp vs 400! that's 120 hps lost compared to clerics ) ~true, this doesn't count the multiclassing, but the cleric will want to multiclass too remember.

2. mages get 0.5 ab per lvl pre-20, clerics get .75 - so when tenz/div.power runs out, clerics can still hit stuff, but mages are pretty much s-o-l. when they don't have any more tensors... better hope you have a few spells left to finish the fight...

3. clerics get divine favor & ava for another +6 ab, wiz/sorc... well mages have a 9 second +20ab from truestrike...better act REALLY fast, oh wait it's gone.

4. clerics can cast spells while divine power is active, wiz/sorcs can't cast while tenzers is active without losing it!

5. clerics can cast SR boost, FoM, heals heals and more heals, neg. protection, regeneration +6 or +12 a round! mages?? get +8 saves vs. spells, spell mantle.. that ain't gonna stop a sword.

6. one GOOD part is wiz/sorcs get a few other boosts with tenzers, where div.power got nerfed long ago (stat/save/dr)

7. aside from this, mages do get mantles, globes, and the epic feats mage armor and warding that clerics can't get, so I suppose that really helps mages when fighting enemies that use magic, but feats get pretty tight in epic levels when trying to fit in all the things you need to be competitive...

TALLY: Cleric: 5, Mage: 2

If you won't bring back the good tensors, how about giving a +2 or 3 ab boost to tensors with transmute focus, maybe some duration increase too? So if you dedicate to it, you can benefit more...