Divine Power and Tensers Transformation AB

[Bargeld]

It was mentioned a while back that Tensers and Divine power compared the BAB of the character and raised it to that of a fighter of equal level, instead of the +1 /2 caster levels. If your build takes all warrior classes pre-epic, and mostly caster levels past 20, then it renders the AB bonus useless. In the case of tensers transformation, you only receive an AB bonus from the str/dex increase.

Using the example above, if a toon is lvl 20 fighter pre-epic, then takes 18 wizard and 2 more fighter after 20, then he should receive a +9 ab bonus from tensers transformation. Initially, this may seem unbalanced, but you must also recognize that the toon has been unable to take any basic wiz feats before 20 and is resigned to taking any combat casting/meta-feats/spell focus (and ALL prerequisites) as epic feats, reducing the amount of epic feats taken overall. The build is also unable to reach epic caster level and any associated benefits and is relatively dispellable.

Is it possible to have these spells corrected to function as described? Thanks in advance!

[Daltian]

Why would 20 fighter/20 wizard with tensers have higher bab then pure fighter, barb or ranger?

[Bargeld]

That's pretty much the point of it, it shouldn't raise your BAB. It should add +1/ 2 caster lvls... at least per the description.

Although this request was not addressed on the forum, it was mentioned in-game and the current response is that the spell functions correctly, but the spell description is incorrect.

[Daltian]

It was changed exactly for the reason that 20 fighter/20 wizard shouldn't have better bab then 40 fighter. But be grateful it doesn't polymorph you as original spell does!

[Chernobyl_Glow]

My favorite subject!!

I’m of the opinion that the spell should be calculated as listed in the spell description. 1AB / 2 caster levels. There is NO scenario where this would lead to an overpowered character. I understand the polymorph version very well. Let’s please not get sidetracked onto that subject. I appreciate that the NS4 staff managed to execute the spell much better than Bioware did. However, they should have saved the time. If it isn’t going to calculate AB properly then it is equally as useless. By level 40, AB is the only reason to use it and if that bonus is going to be only 3 or 5 AB then it is pointless to build a character around it.

Fighter?
So what is the basis for thinking that nothing should have higher AB than a fighter? Why shouldn’t a 20ftr/20wiz have more AB than a pure fighter? If the spell were working according to the description (which it is not) the difference would only be 5-8 more. 20 Ftr BAB + 10 Wiz BAB +10 Tensers = 40 Plus 2 from Bulls Str and +1 Haste. That’s the most a Wiz can do for AB. 43 vs 35. Plus a Pure fighter gets +5 from pure class and a +20 token also and the KD. Your thought is that a Wiz/Ftr would be overpowered against that? A magically skilled character with fighting capability could conceivably have more accuracy than one without magical ability.

I don’t know if this math is correct below but aren’t many of the mixed class builds able to boost their AB up to more than that of a Fighter?

Doesn’t a Melee Cleric (or 20ftr/20Cleric) have more AB than a pure fighter?
20 Ftr BAB + 10 Clc BAB (post epic) + 3 AVA + 3 Divine Favor = 36 Plus 2 from Bulls Str and +1 Haste. (divine power gains none) (eek if you add War Domain ~+7)

Doesn’t a Melee Bard (or 20ftr/20bard) have more AB than a pure fighter?
20 Ftr BAB + 10 Bard BAB + 3 War Cry +2 Song = 35 Plus 2 from Bulls Str and +1 Haste. (I hope my math isn’t wrong on these. I haven’t built them. Just the way I assume they work.)

…

Arcane Fighter
This is basically similar to a cleric that sacrifices spellcasting to become a melee character. Tensers, used effectively by an Arcane Caster, can be a spell that has huge impact but with some huge sacrifices. First the build will basically have to forfeit most other options. Without Tensers he is nothing. Keep in mind that almost all other benefits of Tensers are negated by 40 and being able to capture that AB bonus and put it to good use will have the following sacrifices:

1. He’ll be a Very Poor Caster -
A Wiz/Ftr will be almost worthless as an attacking spell caster. The low DCs and low Spell penetration.
No effective Spell Penetration keeps even the spells with no DC from working on many players. The requirements for the spell require at least a score of 16 in INT which was formerly a dump stat for a pure fighter. This will effectively lower their main stat or some other.

2. Cannot Cast other Spells-
As opposed to Song or Divine Buffs, once Tensers is cast the spell caster cannot cast any other spells. Therefore, a caster cannot mix in Wails or Wilting or Mords or spam IGMS and then use Tenser’s without recasting that. Its short length will basically force Extend as a feat (and an INT score of 17). It forces a spellcaster to do what he is poorest at, Melee. This spell is only barely able to overcome that (if at full strength). All the while, a fighter’s AB is permanent.

3. AC!! -
This is a huge problem for a Tenser's build. You can’t cast Tenser’s with armor on due to spell failure. And FYI, the AC from Tenser’s also is not like the spell description. It does NOT stack with Natural Armor and therefore an amulet as basic as Ice Amulet negates that effect. The bottom line is that a 20ftr/20wiz would gain the most out of Tenser’s being at “full power” but would still be a very challenging build. A Dex build might have reasonable AC but will have almost no damage output. Many builds can have AC of over 70 and a Tenser's build will struggle to get 60. Trust me I know.

4. AB Cap -
A Pure Caster cannot benefit as much from Tenser's much because of the +20 Cap on AB. I'm not sure what counts toward that cap but I can't imagine that having more than about 25 levels of arcane would be beneficial. Weapon bonus or ability buffs, weapon focuses. Some count some don't. But ultimately, the last dozen caster levels won't have any effect.

You also have the issue of:
Dispels
Limited Epic Feats
Resurrection just gives you a chance to run. Etc.

Divine Power is a totally different spell. A cleric will already have better AB compared to a caster. The cleric can wear armor while casting. The cleric can then cast other spells while Divine Power is in effect. This should not have been used for the basis calculation on Tensers.

AB is the only benefit to Tenser's and there are heavy drawbacks to being able to use it effectively. As it exists today, exactly Zero people use Tenser’s which should be adequate testimony to how underpowered it is currently. The general problem is that it trying to use this spell is very detrimental in so many ways. You can’t really appreciate how so until you play a character that uses it. If you simply look at the AB bonus you think its overpowered. It isn’t overpowered. It should be 1 per 2 caster levels.

Best regards,

- Glow -

Free Tenser's!! Set Free the Arcane Fighters of Aetheria! hehe

[Korr]

Arcane Archer

17 max BAB pre-epic + 10 epic + 21 AA/bow + 20 (appx) dex + 3 feats =71 AB... and thats base.

A fighter what? cuz if that were a bard you could get anoter 3-4 AB from song/warcry and 1 from haste and 3 from ava scrolls. Wow looking at 7-8 more AB... thats like 80 AB

[Amoenotep]

and the damage output is ok..and the feat list is ok...and they go down nice in a fight once you start hammering their face in. they are ranged

[Sparky]

Traditionally, any build that uses a single ability or spell as its mainstay is doomed to run into numerous problems.

[Bargeld]

All the more reason to let us try it and laugh if we fall on our faces

[cRaZy8or5e]

Traditionally, any build that uses a single ability or spell as its mainstay is doomed to run into numerous problems.

Or be really really good at one thing. (The half full pov)

[Chernobyl_Glow]

From reading the replies. You all agree that Tensers requires huge sacrifices and risks in order to be used at all. Korr demonstates another good example of a build that achieves much higher AB than a pure fighter. So, Why does a fighter's AB, and subsequently, why does Divine Power come into the equation at all??

Again the build would have very nice benefits from Tensers but huge exposures and weakness that will have to be compensated for. Its not like it would "free" AB with no drawbacks like.

Don't all of these replies basically support the argument that it should be calculated as described? 1AB per 2 caster levels?

Best,

- Glow -

[Daltian]

As it is you still get high ab with bonus of some awesome buffs including haste, damage shields, spell buffers and what not. And get to cast damage spells and dispells. You need to cast tenser again after that, but you still have the option. And yes, you can be dispelled but you have to accept that option if you take only 20 lvls of caster class.

[Korr]

Ok yes that AA build I threw up there would be pummeled REALL REALLY fast. That was a maxed build for an AA. So fully buffed youre looking at 80 AB, a pure fighter would need to have maxed str or so to reach that AB.


So if you knock down a few levels of AA, and get some Epic Dodge, and Blinding Speed youre looking at having a charater thats not too easy to throw down on. Especially with use of scrolls (need rogue for Epic Dodge anyway), and while youre at it... how you gonna chase down a toon thats called shotting you? FoM, easy strip these days.... So you can sacrifice about 4 AB on the AA to get 1 dodge a round, speed and AC boost as free action, scrolls out the wazooh, heck if you did bard for youre arcane class you could even curse song so you cant be cursed (if it still works like that). All with max spot and listen, and even disc with the bard levels, and umd, and open lock, and LOTS AND LOTS of skills fighters dont get.

[Bargeld]

But I want +9 from tensers

[-BannyD-]

that build would fail Korr. im not gonna explain why, but trust me...i know archers